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Episode 84

Seeking Truth & Penning Fiction featuring Danuta Pfeiffer

Episode  84
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Danuta Pfeiffer’s stunningly beautiful memoir, Chiseled joins Educated, The Glass Castle and Angela’s Ashes in that rare class of memorable books by authors who have triumphed over nearly impossible childhoods. Danuta’s latest work is Libertas, the first in a trilogy, following the flight for freedom of two runaway slaves and their trek across 19th Century America, seeking liberty. Danuta joins us to talk about her own search for meaning which compelled her to study philosophy, religion and the source of her father’s pain. Her journey finds her co-hosting the 700 Club with Pat Robertson, bicycling from Canada to Mexico, traveling to Poland to learn the truth about her abusive father and at long last, finding love, and faith in nature and in herself. Plus, Fritz and Weezy are recommending Inventing Anna on Netflix and The Rescue on Disney Plus.

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Louise Palanker (00:00:04):

Welcome to Media Path. I'm Louise Palanker.

Fritz Coleman  (00:00:06):

And I'm Fritz Coleman.

Louise Palanker (00:00:07):

If you have just finished a series or a movie or a book that you really loved and you've made time in your busy schedule for this podcast, you are a wise and intelligent strategist. We've got some wonderful ideas for you, including a couple of books titled Chiseled and Btas by our guest, Danuta Pfeiffer. She's coming up in a few moments, but first, Fritz, what have you been watching this

Fritz Coleman  (00:00:30):

Series? Oh, I have a great news series. What hooked? Uh, I was hooked on this series. Before I became a series, I was hooked on the magazine article because it was so fascinating. This is on Netflix. It's called Inventing Anna. It's a nine-part series, written and produced by Shonda Rhimes who brought us Grey's Anatomy and Private Practice and Scandal. So, you know, it's pulp and it's fun, and it's based on a true story. A journalist investigates the case of Anna Sorokin, aka a Anna Delve, who is a woman who pretends to be a German heiress, living in a massive trust fund who rubs shoulders with the elite of New York and builds a lot of them out of a lot of money. It was based on a New York magazine, uh, article, uh, feature article entitled How Anna Delve Tricked New York's Party People. The journalist is named Vivian Kent in the film based on the real life writer Jessica Pressler.


Anna was arrested in 2017 after leaving a trail of debts around New York City. She'd become a social media sensation because she posted all of her exploits on Instagram so people knew who she was before she became anybody. The series is written from the point of view of the journalist Vivian Kent, who drive to make this article work was based on the fact that she had written a piece earlier in her career that was found to be factually inaccurate. So this woman was driven to make this New York article work looking for career redemption. She was also very astute in sensing that Anna Del's goal in allowing herself to be written about was just to be famous. Anna's played by Julia Gardner, who is known for her role on Ozark. Many people love that. I've never seen it. Vivian Kenis played by Anna Schulsky, who began as a child star, and then later played in two my films with Dan Akroyd and the fourth season of AMC's Halt in Catch. It's fun series. It, it kind of has the same vibe wheezy as Six Degrees of Separation with Will Smith, where it was very cool to watch Manhattan Upper Crust people get totally duped by somebody who comes from another

Louise Palanker (00:02:38):

Wait. So let me back up just the train for a moment. Uh, she is Macaulay Kin's first kiss

Fritz Coleman  (00:02:44):

<laugh>. Oh, is that right?

Louise Palanker (00:02:45):

Oh my God, that's so cool. Okay. So yeah, I mean, she, somehow this individual learns to speak fluent rich lady and sh and, and that vocabulary is very dense. You have to brands and art and food. How does a person go about studying that online and then walking through the world as if you've spoken this language your entire life? She

Fritz Coleman  (00:03:09):

Doesn't have to study it because she has a photographic memory. Okay. And they refer to that throughout the first three or four episodes, uh, frequently, where she can look at somebody's biography and in 15 seconds have it completely memorized. And so she probably sees all these ads and is exposed to all these brands like in Bergdorf Goodman and Bloomingdale's, and just has it all in her Rolodex of her mind and can throw these things out when confronted, uh, about it with people that really knows what they're talking about

Louise Palanker (00:03:39):

Too. And then she had, she, she has the sort of confidence or the arrogance or the brazenness to sort of walk through the world as if she doesn't need you.

Fritz Coleman  (00:03:48):

No, she's a sociopath, which draws people, she's a complete sociopath. Right.

Louise Palanker (00:03:51):

But I think it's that affect is designed to pull people in. Like she knows exactly what she's doing. She's, you know, kind of deliberate about it. And rather than using her giant brain for good, I think she really gets off on tricking people. Like that's powerful for her.

Fritz Coleman  (00:04:08):

That's a game. And she's a sociopath, and so there's no empathy. It's all about her e everything. So, but

Louise Palanker (00:04:14):

My favorite part of the whole piece, Fritz, is the sort of only murders contingent of, uh, let's call them seasoned journalists who are helping our lead character crack the case in the newsroom. Oh, yeah. They've been relegated to the, you

Fritz Coleman  (00:04:31):

Know, yeah, they're the corner. They're the dry, they're washed up people. Yeah. They're like the, uh, washed up Greek chorus over in the

Louise Palanker (00:04:36):

Corner. Great. But they are getting it done. Yeah. It's really fun. I'm enjoying it. Yeah, that's

Fritz Coleman  (00:04:39):

Great, sir.

Louise Palanker (00:04:40):

Okay, so I watched on Disney, uh, a piece called The Rescue. It's a documentary, and I just want to make this observation about it. Humans are a fascinating species. We can spend billions waging war creating weapons and wreaking death, chaos, and destruction. And we can erect a multinational city in a backyard in the service of pulling a baby out of a well. The Rescue Chronicles and mesmerizing saga that transfixed the world. In 2018, the Daring Rescue of a coach and 12 boys trapped deep inside a flooded cave in Thailand. The heart pounding story is told through the use of never before in seed footage and exclusive interviews with key players, including Royal Thai Navy Seals and US Air Force special tactics team members. But it's the handful of unique and quirky guys drawn to the hidden sports subgenre of cave diving who emerge as the heroes of the piece with the world watching. And 13 lives on the line. This plucky team of handpicked enthusiasts masterminded a perilous plan, which included drugging and scuba, asking the kids to swim them out one by one. Yes, we know how the story heroically ends, but this film takes you inside the rescue step by step and celebrates the astounding courage and compassion of the rescuers and the shared humanity of the international community that united to save the Boys the rescue is on Disney Plus.

Fritz Coleman  (00:06:05):

Yeah. That was a huge international story. So big in fact, that our station, a local TV station spent a, sent a correspondent over there to Thailand to cover it when it happened. It was huge.

Louise Palanker (00:06:14):

Oh, there was a whole village.

Fritz Coleman  (00:06:15):

Yeah, it was,

Louise Palanker (00:06:16):

And it's just, I highly recommend this. Yes, it was gripping amazing. Would you, I think we should introduce our kids. Let's

Fritz Coleman  (00:06:22):

Get Ms. Danuta in here.

Louise Palanker (00:06:23):

Tenuta Pfeiffer is a progressive journalist, best known for her work in San Diego radio and television. And as her award-winning memoir chiseled, a memoir of identity duplicity and divine wine explains her behind the scenes experience. As co-host of The 700 Club with Pat Robertson during his run for president, I would place Danita's book Chiseled alongside the glass castle, educated and Angela's ashes in a class of books by authors who have triumphed over nearly impossible childhoods. Danda graduated from the University of Colorado with a BA in communications and journalism, and a minor in philosophy, which led her down a pathway of spiritual exploration directly into a position as the best known woman in evangelical Christianity. Today, Danuta is a community activist, the author of four books, a motivational speaker, and a long distance bicycle Rider Danuta, and her husband Robin, can often be found tending to their 70 acre vineyard, making fine wine and sharing it with friends in their tasting room at Pfeiffer Winery in Oregon. Welcome to New to Pfeiffer.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:07:26):

Thank you very much.

Louise Palanker (00:07:28):

So let me start by saying that you have a unique and beautiful gift with language. Your writing is magnificent, and listeners should press pause on this podcast and download Chiseled and Litos right now. Welcome back. You chose <laugh>. You chose the word chiseled as the title of your memoir. It has more than one personal meaning for you. Can you tell us about that?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:07:51):

Well, chiseled has, um, yes, it does have multiple meanings. My father was a sculptor, and he would, he would, he would sculpt these amazing, beautiful, uh, uh, statues bigger than life, literally larger than life. And they were for cathedrals and for, and for churches and altars and that sort of thing. And, um, so chiseled, uh, the book started as his story. And, um, so chiseled at first became that which you carve out of stone or wood or ice, something that emerges. Chiseled also means to trip, uh, or to steel. And, um, there is, there is that theft in there, a theft of identity. And so, um, so it did it, the book ended up having two different meanings.

Fritz Coleman  (00:08:49):

You know, I, I found one of the, one of the fascinating ironies of her father who is sort of the through line in your whole life's journey, uh, was that your father was a magnificent sculptor of great religious themes. I mean, he would do Christ on the cross and all these things that were commissioned by cathedrals. And he was very famous, the world over for these. Yet he was very non-religious himself. Religion was not part of his life. It was so fascinating to me. What was the appeal of religious themes to your dad, uh, other than maybe his youth

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:09:21):

And, well, it's his background as, uh, in Poland, uh, Christianity, everybody was a Christian, uh, in his little village, um, and, and a Catholic, uh, Christian. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So he was raised a Catholic, uh, he, he, the, the church was the center of the village. Um, and so that was, that was his religion. It was, it was assumed that you would be born a Catholic and you would die a Catholic. When he married my mother, my mom had to become a Catholic in order for them to be married. But interestingly enough, he, um, he was not as, uh, religious, did not attend churches as often, and it was my mother, really, who pulled us through that Catholic system for years.

Louise Palanker (00:10:09):

Your book opens on the harrowing scene of you and your mother escaping your violent father with two small children by means of a car. You have been commissioned to drive to Alaska. Talk about the events that led to a winter road trip to Alaska being less dangerous than your father

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:10:28):

<laugh>. That's a great question. <laugh>. Well, in, in, uh, in 1966, uh, there was no internet, um, surprise, surprise. There was no way to know that we were heading into the worst, uh, uh, winter storm of the century. So here we were in, um, fe late February, early March. Uh, we were in a car that had no snow tires and, uh, and a faulty heater. And we were destined to drive 4,000 miles from northern Michigan through parts of northern, uh, Minnesota, up into Canada, along the trans Canadian highway, and then up through 1500 miles of the Alaskan Canadian Highway, um, through Tundra over the Rocky Mountains. Uh, this is a, this was when the, uh, Alcan as we, uh, affectionately call it was only 24 years old. So the, the Alcan had been built by soldiers during World War ii, thinking that the Japanese were going to invade.


And so they wanted some passage through to Alaska. So they had, they chopped trees down and made a road. Um, and so it was corduroy. So when you went over these roads in the summertime, if you went over the roads, it was boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And, uh, but in the wintertime, the snow had packed it down. But the problem was that the bridges were also rudimentary and made out of, um, just logs. And so we had to go over these treacherous, um, uh, more than treacherous bridges and, uh, and around mountain passes that had no, there were no signs. There were no gas stations, there were no lodges. There was no pavement there, and there were no people. There were some bear caches, so that if a traveler along the alcan came into any trouble, you remembered how many miles ago you passed, a little hut that was built on a pole or in a tree that you could actually find a little, some provisions to, uh, run away from bears.


Um, whoa. It was, uh, it was sometimes the fog was so dense that, uh, I remember at one point we were following a truck. It was a big truck, um, um, and we, and so we were following, its, its taillights for, for hours and hours and hours, because we figured that that truck and that trucker might know where to go, um, at another time in a, in, um, in a terrible blizzard. An awful, I mean, it was just complete white out. We lost the road completely, and we didn't, and we were in the mountain. So we didn't know, uh, whether we were going to be falling off the mountain or where exactly the road was. Um, the problem, why didn't you stop? Well, you don't stop when it's 40 and 50 and 60 degrees below zero. Wow. Um, because then the car would stall and, um, then we'd really be stuck.


So, um, my mother, uh, was this little determined little nurse, English nurse, and by gosh, she, she had the spine of Churchill, <laugh> <laugh>. And she, she just, she just drove that car, and she never looked back. And she just kept looking forward and, and steered us, uh, to Anchorage. Um, many times, one time we went under a glacier. We didn't know it was a glacier, and we didn't know that it was about to blow. Um, apparently there was a waterfall that had frozen over the road, and we were under it. And when we got to this tavern, um, there were a lot of, uh, it was one of the few places where there were people, these were, these were hunters and fur trappers that lived out in the wild, and they were in there having some beer. And, and the bartender said to us, where'd you come from?


And my mother said, well, the road. And he says, well, that's impossible that that road's been closed for weeks, because the, the glacier's gonna break and blow any time. And he says, he said, you, you came, you came through it. You came under the glacier. Uh, we had no idea that we were in a glacier, except it was, it was like being in a bottle of seven up. Everything, all the bubbles were frozen, and it was blue and green, and you could hear gurgling water somewhere. And it was some kind of tunnel that we were skidding through. It was, um, quite the journey.

Fritz Coleman  (00:15:33):

I, I, I wanna make two points. The first point is we have to tell people the reason for your 4,000 mile hideous journey was that your father was very verbally and physically abusive to everybody in the family, but in particular, you, because you became pregnant as a teenager. Yes. And he rejected you and the child. And I mean, he rejected you in the most vile ways. And so it was, it was important for you and the family to escape. And then the escape. And you're beautifully written. That whole passage, the whole first third of your book, where you described this journey, really shows your talent as a writer, the metaphors or unbelievable. And you're on your injury, your seat. But what, what I came away with is your mom truly is one of the heroes of your life, because she was the only one who was there for you and her bravery. And as you say, her fortitude coming through these harrowing experiences that could have killed you was really amazing. And then the, the, the very sort of melancholy positions she takes up in the end of your book when she has a little dementia and she's living in the barn, I just found her to be a very sympathetic and a wonderful character. And I'm, I'm sure she was as important to you as she seemed in your writing.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:16:42):

Absolutely. She, she, she was my hero. She saved my life. She saved the life of our family. Uh, she, and because she was a nurse, she could, she could work. Uh, so when we made, when we finally made it to Anchorage, she was able to get a job at a local hospital. Um, she, she never, she never gave up. She was, she was something. And, and I think one of the reasons why she could do that was because she had the ability to, uh, only look forward. Um, she kept telling me over and over, don't look back. Don't we, we, there's nothing we can do about the past. Just, just keep going forward. Just keep looking forward. That's all we can do. And, um, it really did in that, in me a sense of resiliency. Um, so that, so that I understood that you can't hold onto the past. You can't hold onto grievances. You can't ha hold onto errors, mistakes, miscalculations, misjudgments, um, um, you, you can't hold onto resentment. All of that has to go away, or else you cannot fill up with the, that are coming into you for the future.

Louise Palanker (00:17:51):

Oh, I love that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. You have to let it go so that you have room, room to grow and learn and improve. Um, you know, you believing in your father's core greatness, you found yourself drawn to men like him with flaws, which eclipsed the good. But you learned from each of them, you were able to learn from all of those relationships.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:18:13):

Yes, I did. Uh, I, there was some part of me that was so naive, of course, I was young, um, so who isn't naive, but there, there were, I was always looking for a, a father figure, really, somebody to say, you know, um, it's okay. You're okay. You're gonna be all right. Um, you are loved. Uh, that, um, that was, it's too bad that I, I felt that need at the time, but I, I also was brimming with something else inside of me that just grew into a, um, a, a staunch advocate of, of my own two feet. Mm, mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I, I learned that I could own. Well, I learned I couldn't rescue anybody else except myself, because my, my first husband was also an alcoholic and, and a, and a and a really desperate one. And, um, it was hard to, he was all the time, um, having these bouts of depression that would then, uh, go into suicide threats.


And I lived with that constantly, not knowing whether he was dead or alive from day to day or week to week sometimes. And, um, and I kept, I kept trying to save him. I kept trying to help him. I, I kept, uh, I became some kind of, um, uh, I felt responsible for him until finally I realized I couldn't, I, you cannot be responsible for somebody else. Uh, there was a point where I had to say, if I continue down this road, I will die. And I had to, I had to be able to pull back from the cliff. And I learned that I could do that. I learned that I was strong enough to say, no, no more enough. And, um, so I went on a 2000 mile bicycle ride. And, and that sort of helped.

Louise Palanker (00:20:22):

Yeah. Unbelievable. Like you were saying, it's not that I'm afraid of work. It's not that I am afraid of a, a journey. It just has to be one that I, I I'm, it's possible to complete.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:20:35):

Um, well, that bicycle ride did it for me in a, in so many different ways. I, um, I, I traveled from, um, Canada to Mexico, uh, with a girlfriend who I wasn't in a big group, and we, we didn't have sag wagons helping us in cooking our food for us. We carried everything on our bicycles, um, tents, cooking apparatus, uh, uh, a little pillow, <laugh> and, uh, and, and really strong legs. And, um, but it was on that bicycle ride that I learned just how strong I really was. Right. Physically, emotionally, and mentally and spiritually. Yeah.

Fritz Coleman  (00:21:14):

You know, the first two thirds of your life, um, with the relationship wheezy talked about, and that you talked about with Will and with Kai, your alcoholic husband, you were, and, and this is probably the pattern established with your father, and we always seek out the familiar, even if it's negative in our lives. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you, you loved men that were incapable of returning that love. And, and, and you had relationships that were sort of based on abandonment. So by the time you met Robin, the whole passage of going out in the boat and you said, wow. And after all this woman has suffered, she found this miracle of a relationship. It really, really, I really rooted for her current marriage. When I got to that point in the book, it was really amazing. And what

Louise Palanker (00:21:56):

Was so cool was how he knew her instantly. Yeah.

Fritz Coleman  (00:21:59):

Yeah. And

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:22:00):

That's what you, it was wonderful.

Fritz Coleman  (00:22:01):

He was very intuitive about who you were before you even had a chance to explain

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:22:04):

It to him. It was, it was the, it was so magical. Um, that was, uh, 27 years ago. Wow. And we are still as much in love now as we were in the, on that first hour, on that little boat trip. Um, I love that. Uh, it's, it, it's been a wonderful life. And yes, it, it really, um, sometimes I have to, I have to pause and I, I look back and I say, what did I do right? Aw. To, to, to get, to get to this point in my life that where everything came together, everything

Fritz Coleman  (00:22:38):

Else. Well, you did the work and you suffered, and you rode 2000 miles on a bike, and you did your work from the inside out and presented yourself in the best possible light to this opportunity, which was Robin. So it was all meant to be, it was kind of cool. I was really going, yes. At the end of the booth,

Louise Palanker (00:22:53):

I think, I think, you know, you're, you're a seeker and, and you're not afraid to ask difficult questions. You're not afraid to hunt for the answers, and you enter the world of televangelism with trepidation. But you were able to hold onto your core values and push back little within the world of hypocrisies you were experiencing. And you describe it so brilliantly in, in your book. Can you, can you talk about that a little bit?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:23:16):

Well, I became a television evangelist quite by accident. I wasn't supposed to be a television evangelist. I was supposed to be, uh, a news bureau chief in Jerusalem. That's what I was news initially hired for mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And when I sat in for the co-host on the 700 Club for three days, um, instead of getting my ticket to Jerusalem, I ended up being told through a memo that I was the new co-host of the 700 Club. This was, uh, this was quite the challenge because I still hadn't learned the, the words to Amazing Grace, yet <laugh>. And they were, and I was now being asked to lay hands on people, heal people. I was asked to, to preach in, in huge, huge churches. And I was flown all over the country to, to, uh, bring love and warmth in Jesus to, to all these people who watched the 700 Club and, and spent money and, and all.


And it was, it was, uh, the celebrity of it was absolutely astonishing to me. Um, and the more I said, please don't come to me. I'm just a person on television. You accepted Jesus in your life because he was supposed to be the one you go to. Right. He's the intercessor, he's your savior. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, not Deva. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, not Pat Robertson. And yet, the more, the more I said no, the more they wanted me, the more they lined up for hours after speaking, engagement, wanting me to pray for their cancer, or their sick spouse, or their, um, uh, well, you name it. Um, um, everything from falling toenails to life and death situations and

Fritz Coleman  (00:25:09):

Death, I think the most, I i about that exact topic, uh, I think one of the most powerful moments in the book, and this seems to be a tipping point for you in deciding that this was not the life for you, cuz you weren't being honest with the people or yourself, was when you were doing that speaking engagement. And a woman rushed up to you and asked you to bless two vials of her oil, uh, whatever it was. And you asked her, why do you want me to bless your oil? And the woman said, because you're on tv. And I thought, wow. That explains the entire Trump phenomenon in one sentence. Why? What gives you credibility? Because you were on TV <laugh>. I thought it was

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:25:51):

Wonderful. Well, well, to to the evangelical conservative, uh, Christian, G uh, the Lord put you there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay. That's all you, that's all you had to know was if you are there, you and you're a believer, you must be there because you were put there that the Lord did it. So your evidence

Fritz Coleman  (00:26:10):

Of God

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:26:11):

On Earth, and therefore you are, uh, you carry that burden. Um, that's, that's what interesting. That's what Jesus wants. That's why you're there. Okay. Um, and, uh, period, there's no, yeah. But after that, um, so anytime anything happened on the 700 Club, even to the point where I was trying to leave several times, I was told, uh, that, um, the Lord put me here for a reason, therefore, I can't go mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And who was I to say that, um, uh, I wasn't serving some greater purpose. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So it was, it was a trap that I found myself in.

Louise Palanker (00:26:53):

Wow. Now, do you believe that the implosion of Televangelism has led, in some ways to the worlds of Fox News and Qan on where folks just long for the comfort of answers rather than facing the, the confusion of questions

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:27:06):

People have always wanted other people to give them answers. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> people don't wanna think things through. Most people are happy and content with just being given simple answers, little sound bites to, uh, to solve some of the world's greatest complex problems, including their own mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, but when it comes to religion, it's even more severe. Uh, because we've been taught to listen to the rabbis, listen to the priests, listen to the popes, listen to the, listen to the celebrity man on tv. He has answers. And all those answers make us feel nice and warm and safe. And now, if you just send in a hundred dollars a month, you will even be safer. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, because God knows that you, you sent us that check. And you're gonna be blessed for that in so many ways. And you may be, you may be poor, and you may be suffering, but there's a better place waiting for you. Now, don't forget, you've don't forget to write that check <laugh>. Yeah. And so, so, so the suffering was, there was a promise, there was always this promise that the, that the suffering made sense. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, in more ways than one

Louise Palanker (00:28:27):

<laugh>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> dollars and cents. Uh,

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:28:29):

In dollars and cents. Yes. Uh, so, so there, there were answers for sufferers for suffering. Um, and people needed those answers. And it's not just the people today. I mean, if you read the Bible, ISAs himself said, you know, my people are sheep. Uh, they, you know, they needed, they needed people, they needed kings, they needed answers. They needed saviors. Um, what they, what people don't understand, I think, and this is what Joseph Campbell does so well, um, that he was the great mythologist, uh, he said, it's all inside of us. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's always been inside of us. But that's

Louise Palanker (00:29:07):

Scary to go inside, isn't it?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:29:09):

The, the all heaven and hell and God, and, and, and, and Gene that they're all inside of us. We are the beginning and the end. We are part of the great, the great one thing out there. And, and we, we get so caught up on the myth, on the story that we forget that it is a metaphor. These are all metaphors. We're trying to understand our place on this

Louise Palanker (00:29:41):

Earth. I think it's really scary to go inside and even scarier for people that have suffered, uh, childhood trauma because they feel guilty about whatever may have gone on. And they, they, so they just resist going there cuz it's terrifying. And religion is a human construct. And it, you know, we've created it to sue this.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:30:02):

And, and, and so we create these, um, leaders mm-hmm. <affirmative>, whether it's a Trump or it's a TV personality who interprets, uh, our religious needs for us mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, we, we go there. We feel that it is, as you say, Luis, it's terrifying to face yourself sometimes. Um, but once you've done that, you realize that you are much stronger than your fear. Oh,

Louise Palanker (00:30:35):


Fritz Coleman  (00:30:36):

You know, even though you co-hosted the show 700 Club with Pat Robertson, I don't put you on the same plane with Pat Robertson. And here's why. Since the time you were in college, you were a seeker. You were a spiritual seeker. You read Kiir, kegar and Con and you were really trying to find answers, which is how you came to your being born again. I think it was an honest quest for understanding the meaning of the universe. So I think you came about your spirituality in a very honest way. What I got out of your book, and what I've read about Pat Robertson and every other TV evangelist is that there's just a dark marketing genius. Pat Robertson, if he did anything, he just understood his demographics, he understood his audience, and he was just this evil marketer and manipulator of human beings about how he didn't want any ugly people on tv.


And he didn't want any people over a certain age on tv, even if he were healing one of their infirmities. He didn't want 'em on TV because they weren't attractive enough money. It was so disturbing to me. But I thought your, your, your position came a came about in a much more pure and honest way. And I, I, I have disdain. Uh, I'll, I'll tell you my one personal story about a TV evangelist. My ex-wife's grandmother was on social security and couldn't afford to live anywhere except in their home. And every month she would send 50% of her social security check to Dr. Schuler at the Crystal Cathedral. And every time she came out the California, we had to make a pilgrimage down to Garden Grove and look at this God awful structure in Garden Grove. And we would say, respectfully, Nana, you cannot give 50% of your social security to this man because he's driving in limousines and you're, you're buying Windex for the Crystal Cathedral. That's all you're doing. But, uh, then I, I got to the point, and you may have an opinion about this, that if, if it made her happy, who am I to judge that activity? But she certainly couldn't afford 50% of her social security.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:32:56):

Those are, there are millions of stories like that, I'm sure. I'm sure. Um, uh, but I, I have to just reel back a little bit, um, and, and say about Pat Robertson. Um, I, I, I don't know if the word evil. I, I, I don't think I would use that word personally. Um, because I, I, I really do think that Pat believed in, in what he was preaching, pat, I, I don't think he was a hypocrite. Pat really followed his path, and he really believed in what he, uh, was espousing. Um, but I think that somewhere along the line, the power mm-hmm. <affirmative> of his presence on television. I mean, the 700 Club was on every continent and in every country in the world, three or four times a day. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, more people watched the 700 Club than read the New York Times, Los Angeles Times Time Magazine, USA Today in the Wall Street Journal combined every day. Wow. And that's an incredible amount of power, and that's an incredible amount of money. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and eventually that corrupted mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, that corrupted the whole purpose of saying, you know, uh, uh, Jesus is here to relieve you of suffering, to give you some hope in the world, uh, to give some kindness, to show mercy. That message sort of went to the wayside. And, um,

Fritz Coleman  (00:34:34):

I just thought his reaction to people was very non-Christian. I thought, this certainly doesn't sound like a Christian. Well, don't

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:34:40):

You think that power reveals Yes. It was a, it was, it became an ego. It became, uh, uh, pat Robertson, the 700 club. That was the ego, and the ego took over Mm, mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, um, and I, so, so it did become, it did become corrupted. And because of that, I, I'm no longer a Christian. I do not count myself as a Christian. Um, people will say to me, where do you worship now? Well, I go outside. I'm in the vineyard. I'm in the greatest cathedral of all mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it's called nature. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there I connect. Um, I can breathe. Uh, I, but I, I do not need to be inside a manmade building to find that great God that people are always looking for. I can find my connection in the great wilderness in, in, within trees and mountains, notions. It's right in front of us. It's right there.

Louise Palanker (00:35:45):

How have, how have the folks who watched the 700 Club responded to your book and to your stepping away from calling yourself a Christian?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:35:54):

Well, at first there was a lot, there was shock, um, people, some, some people just couldn't believe it. Other people tried to save me again. Okay. Uh, <laugh>, I would've, visitors coming to say, you know, Danuta, you know, Jesus wants you back. And, um, and some people, once they read the book, though, I, I think I explained it in such a way that the question as to why I'm no longer on the 700 club, what happened to me there. I think it's, it's, it was explanation enough. And I don't think I got a lot of backlash, um, for it. And I still do have friends that, um, are, uh, uh, communicate with me from those days. And that's a lady bug right there. Oh,

Louise Palanker (00:36:42):

That's cool. That's cool. He walked right across the lens,

Fritz Coleman  (00:36:44):

Heard us talking about nature and walk right across. Wow. I love that. Well, I, I've gotta tell you, uh, I, I think that you, you showed this bravery that you got from your mother in your ability to step away from that recognition and power. You're talking about Pat Robertson's power, the purity of your soul was that you were able to step away from it. I mean, you gave up a fairly powerful position as a woman of prominence, not only in the Christian world, but in broadcasting and being noted all around the world, that that took a lot of bravery to realize that about yourself and step away and change your life. Cuz you gave up a lot to do that

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:37:22):

And, and did it publicly. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, yeah, <laugh>, it, it's one thing to do it if you're, if you're a private person, but when you do it in front of millions and millions of people, it, uh, it does take its toll. And so I I, in two years beating myself up, uh, trying to find the Lord again, trying to reconnect with that whole system. And, and the more I tried, the more pain it brought me. And so I really found that I had to let it all go and start over in that search and, and realize that, you know, there, there is something out there. I am part of a great pulse in, in, even in trees and rocks. I mean, if you go down into the molecular energy of anything, we all are pulsing the same way. There's the same molecular pulse to everything. And I love knowing that I'm part of that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and

Fritz Coleman  (00:38:25):

I'm, that's what all the, the founding fathers of the United States were dias. And they all espouse the same philosophy you did, that God is in all of nature, and that's where we should find it. Mm-hmm. It wasn't about Christianity. It was about where we find all those guys, Jefferson and Washington, they all believe that,

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:38:42):

Well, there's a word for it. It, it comes way back. Uh, I mean, even in the Romans and the Greeks, uh, uh, Aristotle, all, there's, uh, there's a, a label for this, if you'll excuse me using a label, but it's called Panpsychism, in which psych pan everything. Psych being consciousness. So that consciousness is in all things. I mean, every day you, you read, I can't eat crab or lobster now, and God forbid I eat an octopus, because, you know, now you're re you're, you're learning that these creatures all have consciousness. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they all think they love, they embrace, they, um, feel pain. Um, and every day you turn around and you find that trees talk to each other. Uh, there's, there's this wonderful, um, complex of life that connects all. And, and that is panpsychism. Uh, the idea that all things have consciousness and share consciousness.

Louise Palanker (00:39:47):

Wow. Interesting. That's powerful. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, you know, when, when you were at the 700 club, you had this light, but it was being chiseled in a certain type of way that wasn't authentically you, and not you found your, your true light as, as a writer. I mean, you are many, many things, but you are, you are a writer <laugh>. That is, that is very, very abundantly clear now. It was your tenacity to continue questioning that brought you face-to-face with a harrowing truth. Without revealing too much, you drop breadcrumbs for the reader. And your husband Robin knew before you did, and he was there to brace your fall. Do you want, how much do you wanna talk about that? Or when you do interviews, how much do you reveal about what happens at, in the later portions of your book?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:40:32):

Well, just me say that when I started writing Chiseled, uh, I thought it was about my father, but as I, it took 25 years to write this book. Whoa. Because the ending kept changing. Okay. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I always thought it was about him. And the, and the longer it took to write, the more I became involved in the story. Until at the, in, in the last third of the book, uh, things were revealed that I, I had no idea of. I, I was living, um, I was living on one reality, and my father was living on another. And, and so it, the ending, as in all life, uh, endings do keep changing. You think, okay, this is who I am. Ah, th no, this is who I am. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm, I'm this over here now. And so, um, as I was writing the book, I changed, my reality kept changing, and my story kept changing. And in this particular memoir, the ending, well, we haven't ended yet, have we? But No. But, uh, we we're seeing that sometimes the things you believe in the, um, even if it's a myth now, I love this part of, of, of the story because it does tie into the whole Christian circle. You can believe in a myth, because the myth in itself, the belief in it, is enough to make you strong. You don't have to, uh, the myth doesn't have to be true. It's your, your belief in it that has to be strong.

Fritz Coleman  (00:42:16):

That's so interesting.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:42:17):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can believe that, um, you can believe that there's a tree in the forest. And if you find that one tree and touch it, that whatever is in your life, if it's arthritis or cancer or misery or ju, but if you could just crawl on your hands and knees to a certain tree in the force and touch it, you will be healed by golly. You know what, that's true. It's true. Cause you have made it though. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> not the tree has no power at all, but it's, it's what you believe that has given you power, faith. And so I believed in a myth, the myth of my father. And that myth made me feel strong when the myth, uh, when it turned out to be a myth. Um, it didn't mean that I turned weak.

Louise Palanker (00:43:14):

No. Because I think you had strengthened yourself to the point where y by the time you learned that truth, you were so much stronger. Do you ever think about what would've happened to you if you had learned that truth sooner, earlier in your life before you had met Robin? You weren't ready? I could've collapsed. Yeah. You weren't ready. I

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:43:36):

Might've collapsed. I, I, I'm, I mean, I, I don't know what I would've done, but I, I love the idea of finding that power within you, even if you have to believe in something that's not true. Yeah.

Fritz Coleman  (00:43:48):

I, I, I thought, uh, we don't wanna give away too much of the end of the book, but it's so extremely powerful. It, it's, it's a great shake, Shakespearean twist in your book, because you go along, we must say that your, your father, uh, early in your life had wanted you to write the story of his life. Yes. So you were doing two things. You were sort of fulfilling his dream for you. And I really thought that your quest, going to Poland and finding out all this information about your father and writing it down was a way where you could process your own feelings about your father and maybe come to a point of forgiveness of your father and put that correct in your own soul, and then boom at the end of the book. It's unbelievable. And we, we, I highly recommend that people read it. It's a, it's a great thing. But as Wey said, at that point, you had already saved yourself, so you would not be destroyed by whatever this third act in your life was.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:44:44):

Exactly. Um, it really was. Um, it, and, and as you say, Robin, my husband, he, he could read, he could read the tea leaves long before I Yeah. Long before I did. I was purposefully going through my life with blinders on mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, um, I didn't see all those tea leaves that Robin did. Um,

Fritz Coleman  (00:45:07):

Did your mom ever find out that this was all nonsense? Uh, was she

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:45:12):

My mother, uh, my mother always suspected something was wrong. She always suspected it. Uh, and, and later told me that, but, but never revealed that suspicion early on until I got back from Poland.

Louise Palanker (00:45:28):

It was sort of like, you know, his wounds had justified his cruelty. And then what does, what did you learn from his siblings and his nieces and nephews and cousins that did justify his cruelty? Did you learn anything?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:45:44):

Well, I didn't learn it from them. Okay. I, I just, I just learned it in life in general. You know, nobody is perfect. Sure. And everybody, everybody suffers something. Everybody has their flaws. And especially the immigrants that came across, um, after the war, so many people changed their names. Right. So many people wanted to leave the old world behind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, so many people just wanted a new beginning. Oh. And in, and in, and in a way that was part of my father's, um, attempt to start anew mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, uh, unfortunately he brought us along with it to the point of, um, of harm and living up to expectations. There was no way we could live up to his expectations. And, uh, and so that, that was, that was difficult. It's

Louise Palanker (00:46:44):

Like you were part of the myth he was creating. And if you didn't fall in line with whatever myth he was creating, he became enraged.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:46:51):

Well, right. Uh, didn't, didn't live up to Yeah. Didn't live up to it.

Fritz Coleman  (00:46:56):

I, I had great, uh, sympathy for you going over and meeting some of these relatives for the first time, and then discovering that everything you knew about your own father was false. I, I, I thought what a sense of embarrassment you must have suffered in the midst of all these relatives. Like they, you know, what, what are they thinking about me that I, I know nothing of the reality of of, of my father.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:47:18):

Well, they were embarrassed too. Yeah. Uh, everybody was embarrassed. Yeah. We, we were all sitting around the table, uh, looking at each other, trying to interpret polish through Yeah. Uh, hand signals and, and waving hankies and, and crying. And, and everybody is talking at once and we're all trying to figure out what happened. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, it was, it was hard for all of us, but, uh, but today, even just today, I was, I've been in touch with my, with my cousin Czar who lives in Warsaw. We've been talking about the problem with, with what's going on Yeah. In the Ukraine. Sure. And we keep, we keep in, in close touch. Um, and we, we're, we're closer now than ever before. It's really brought this whole new level of, uh, of my ancestry and, and given us, given me so much more dimension, knowing where I come from. Yeah. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I meet so many people who do not know where their grandmother came from. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Or where their aunts and uncles used to live. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> or what, you know, what, what their own ancestry is. And if they did know they haven't pursued it, and you're missing so much by not visiting those roots while those people rich. Yeah. Uh, and it is so important.

Louise Palanker (00:48:41):

Yeah. Even if you have to sleep like 27 to a room, <laugh>.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:48:47):


Louise Palanker (00:48:47):

Right. Now I wanna know what inspired Lebar Leber toss, because litos Yeah. It's gonna be a trilogy.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:48:55):

See a Latin word. It's, yeah. It's a Latin word for freedom.

Louise Palanker (00:48:58):

Right. So what inspired this, cuz you, it's so well researched and you, once again, you're writing is just gorgeous and the details, and it just, it just places you there. So tell me what led you on this journey?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:49:13):

I discovered in a, in conversations with my husband Robin, about the, uh, the history of Oregon, the racist history of Oregon. Oregon was founded as a utopian white society. Uh, and it was the only state in the union that had it written into its constitution that in 1859 when Oregon became a state that no blacks were allowed in. And if you were in, you were supposed to leave. Whoa. Uh, and if you didn't leave, you were going to have life very difficult because you couldn't own land, you couldn't sue anybody, you couldn't work. And, um, you were given, uh, 50 lashes, uh, every six months until you did go,

Louise Palanker (00:49:57):

Oh my God.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:49:58):

And if you went, and if you didn't leave, then, um, you were, you could be put into forced labor until you did go. Interestingly, the, the man who put in that lash law, this is several years before the Constitution, it was about 18 50, 18 45, 18 50. These, these, um, black exclusion laws, uh, were being changed and amended all the time. But the lash law was put in place by Peter Burnett, and if that name rings a bell, that was the first governor of California. Wow. And he, um, they wanted a utopia where, um, they could be free of all the problems that they were facing in the south. So the war was coming on, the Civil War was, was gearing up. There was north-south problems. Slavery was the big question. Free black men were, were trying to find their, uh, uh, uh, a place to live. The underground was, was, uh, was moving.


There were, there were anti-slavery laws, and there were, and then there were laws to say, well, even if you were a a, a state that, that did not believe in slavery, we could still come and get you and bring you back even if you made it to a free state. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So Oregon then was put in a position, uh, the, the early legislative assemblies decided that they didn't want any more problems. And so they figured that all those problems were because of the black man. The black man did it. Wow. So in order to, uh, sidestep problems in a new territory, let's just make this a white utopia where we don't have to deal with all the problems that, that the black or mulatto person will bring into our state. So while they were an anti-slavery state, it was still, um, anti-black mm-hmm. <affirmative> and he black.


Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Wow. Um, so I have protagonists, Horace and Federica who have, who have been seeking freedom, left their plantation, escape from the plantation, go to New York, get across the eerie canal, they make it to buffalo. From Buffalo. They go down to St. Louis, they may get up the, the Missouri River. They're in Independence, Missouri. They've gotten into a wagon train, and now they're walking 2000 miles across a graveyard. That's how long the graveyard is during the time of the wagon trains. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was a cemetery loaded with dead people. Yeah. Uh, people were dying every 80 yards for 2000 miles, and it was the toughest damn thing you've ever thought about. It's not as sanitized ideal that we think about when we think about wagon trains moving west. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was hard. It was, it was more than hard. It was, uh, terrifying. They had dysentery, cholera, typhoid.


They wore masks just to get from one waterhole to another, trying to outrun the cholera or the typhoid. Um, babies were, were falling off the wagons and falling under the wheels. Men were shooting themselves with their own rifles because they didn't understand how a rifle worked. And they would put them in loaded barrel side out in the wagon, and at night when they went to unload the wagon, they'd pull a gun towards them and the hairline trigger would go off and they'd shoot themselves in the stomach. Uh, this happened many times, just crossing rivers. There were dozens and dozens and dozens of rivers that they had to cross. They either had to float the, the boxes across the river or, uh, the oxen or drowning. People are drowning in the rivers. Uh, the wagons are turning over, uh, and spilling out. Um, and then of course, you've got the desert and you've got the mountains and you've got the high plains, and you've got, you've got hostile, uh, native Americans, um, who are, who are, you know, coming down trying to stop, to stop this white wave that was taking all the buffalo.


And, um, and these people had such endurance that it, it, it defies imagination. They walked the entire way. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're not sitting in a buckboard, uh, clip clopping along, they're oxen are dying. They have to walk. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> then sometimes they're barefoot, because by the time they got to Oregon or California, they were, they were impoverished, starving barefoot. They lost all their possessions. They have what's only on their back, and they have no idea what they're going to do next. Yeah. It was, and now make these people run away slaves, <laugh>. And that's the story of Libratus.

Louise Palanker (00:55:10):

Are you watching 1893 on Paramount?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:55:13):

I, 1883? Yeah.

Louise Palanker (00:55:15):

I can never remember numbers for our title of 1883.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:55:17):

Yeah. But you know, I'm, I'm loving that series. Yeah. I just love it. Uh, but, but there are, I've, I found a couple of, of goofs in

Louise Palanker (00:55:26):

It. I bet you did. Because

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:55:27):

Their wagons are being pulled by horses.

Louise Palanker (00:55:30):


Danuta Pfeiffer (00:55:31):

And horses

Louise Palanker (00:55:32):

Weren't gonna make it.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:55:33):

Horses were not what you need on a, on a wagon train. Horses need to eat. They need to eat grain and grass. And there wasn't always grain and grass. They may be faster, but they're not as, they're not as end endurable. So it's dirty. Yeah. So the oxen can eat anything and they're slower, but they're stronger. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they can eat anywhere. Horses. Mm. Not so much

Louise Palanker (00:56:00):

<laugh>. Wow. Well,

Fritz Coleman  (00:56:02):

One of the ironies about Oregon is, uh, over time it evolved into a fairly progressive state. Right?

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:56:09):

Yes. Um, parts of it, parts of Oregon are very progressive. Um, I love, I love Oregon. That's where I live. And, um, Oregon. Oh, it's, it's, it's still wild. It's still, it's still, you know, we have rivers that we, we love to, uh, that we love to go down and mountains to ski. And we've got this rugged ocean. We don't call our coastline the beach. Yeah. <laugh>, we call it the coast. Okay. Because the beach has no respect. You have to call it the coast. Right. <laugh>. But, um, it's a, it's a wonderful place to live. And it does bring out in you the pioneer spirit, uh, and the people that ended up here having gone through so much, having, having endured so much. Uh, one of the questions that I ask in the second book in the series that I am, is, once you've endured all that, what do you have left of you?


Who are you now? Because you're not the same person you were when you started back east. Right. You've come through hell. Yeah. And now you've come to a new land and all you know is endurance. Right. You've had to leave your humanity behind. You can't mourn. You can't weep, you can't cry. Wow. You can't love you. You can't feel anything. But we have to keep going. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and they had to dr, they had to leave everything behind. Um, when they, uh, um, uh, if they were dying, sometimes they couldn't even wait for somebody to die. They would, they would dig the grave if somebody was dying of, uh, cholera, they would dig the grave next to the person who was dying while the wagon train is moving on, leaving somebody back there with the shovel, waiting for this person to actually die. So they could just roll them into the grave. Oh boy. The wagon train will not stop because you've got time and distance that that really every minute counts. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, and part of the second book that I'm writing is about the Donner party and, uh, and, and what they had to endure long before they made it to the Sierra Nevada and got stuck in all that snow. Right. What they went through trying to take that shortcut, getting to the Sierra Nevada is a story that is absolutely unbelievable what these people did. Wow.

Louise Palanker (00:58:41):

Wow. So I grew up in Buffalo, New York, and I did not know about the Lake Erie tsunami of 1844. Talk about that a little bit.

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:58:52):

Oh, isn't that, wasn't that a fascinating

Louise Palanker (00:58:54):

Ah, yeah. Wasn't

Danuta Pfeiffer (00:58:55):

That fascinating? Yeah, it was. It was, um, it was in November. It was at night. It happened at midnight. So Buffalo was asleep. Now what happens during, and it's called the sk, which is a tsunami that happens in a freshwater lake. Lake Erie is long and narrow and shallow. And the wind was pulling, the, the wind was coming out of the north, and it was pushing the, the lake to a course of days. And about the third day, the wind was really strong, but nobody really noticed that the water now had backed up to the point that you, for as far as you could see, it was just one long sandy beach mm-hmm. <affirmative> that the water had pulled all the way back to the south end of Lake Erie. Now it's nighttime. And what happened was that the wind changed direction. So instead of plowing out of the north, it suddenly came from the south and pushed all of that water that had been piled up to the south of the lake, pushed it north.


And, and what happens, what happened then is what happens in a bathtub, right. The water has no place to go in a bathtub. If you start sloshing around like this, the water goes with it, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then you have these oscillating waves that collide and explode into these huge, huge waves, 30, 40 feet high. And they're crashing against each other and exploding up. And also at the same time, rolling into the north. So all these scheme ships that were out in Lake Erie, big ones, passenger ships, fishing boats, they were pulled up and thrown into the city. Wow. And, and then this 20 foot wave, 20, 30 foot wave came crashing into Buffalo while people were still asleep. Nobody knew this was happening. Yeah. Until, until this enormous sayk or lake tsunami hit Buffalo. One of the interesting anecdotes on, on this story is that there was a steam ship out in the middle of the lake.


That was that after the storm had survived the sage, but now it's rudder was broken and it couldn't, and it was full of passengers that had survived. And they, they had a horse on board and they had to put a note on the horse's main and shove the horse off the boat so that the horse could swim to shore with the note on its main saying, there's a ship out there with people come and help us. Wow. And they were burning their furniture for heat, because remember, it's November. Yeah. In Buffalo. Oh my. And you're in the water. And, and now there's, you know, they're, so, they're burning all their furniture. They're starting to burn the ship, trying to keep warm, waiting for this horse to get that message, uh, of, uh, to rescue them.

Louise Palanker (01:01:57):

Did it work?

Danuta Pfeiffer (01:01:59):

Yes, it did.

Louise Palanker (01:02:01):

Wow. Wow. All right. So we need to learn from you what's next? You're, it sounds like you've already written the second book. And when will that be back?

Danuta Pfeiffer (01:02:08):

The, the second book? Um, I'm just now finishing up. I'm, I'm into, I'm editing now, which is, um, taking a little bit of time, but I'm in editing of the second book, which going to be called Feas. Okay. And that is Latin Four Endurance. Yes. And that is, uh, infer matas. That is where the Donner party is also part of the subplot. Um, and, uh, oh, I had to tell you one more little tiny thing about Librato, please. One of the things you don't learn in school, Abraham Lincoln almost made it to the Donner Party. He wanted to go to California with them. Oh. But Mary wouldn't let him. Oh

Fritz Coleman  (01:02:46):


Danuta Pfeiffer (01:02:46):

Oh, Mary Lincoln said, no, Abe, you've got a, you've got a baby on the way. We've got a four year old son and you're running for Congress. You can't go with the Donners. Abe Lincoln wanted to leave with James Reed and George Donner on that trip. Can you imagine if Abraham Lincoln was with the Donner Party, how it would've changed history?

Fritz Coleman  (01:03:10):

Somebody would've had an Abe sandwich <laugh>, and it wouldn't have been fun for everybody <laugh>. Anyway, um, I gotta tell you, you, you have had a gift for writing since you were very young. Your, your, your memoir was so compelling and, uh, really edge of your seat. And I, as I'm listening to you tell the story of Li Bear Toss, I'm thinking it's like the trip down the Alka Highway with oxen. It sounds like it. It's, it sounds like that trip you made. So have you ever thought about connecting those two journeys that didn't seem like they were gonna end well, man. Oh man.

Danuta Pfeiffer (01:03:49):

Oh my goodness. I've always loved to write, so I'm bringing in some of that tension. I guess

Fritz Coleman  (01:03:53):

You really have a, you really have a gift.

Louise Palanker (01:03:55):

It really is wonderful. So I encourage everyone to go to Amazon and download these books. They're just wonderful. And I just wanna thank you so much for being with us. Danuta Fritz is gonna tell everybody how you can review our show for your own health

Fritz Coleman  (01:04:07):

And safety. Well, depending on where you get your, uh, podcast, apple Podcasts or, uh, wherever. We, we would love for you to leave your thoughts about the podcast. You know, we'd love to spread the word about this. The whole world needs to know that we have danuta quality guests on here that have interesting stories to tell. And the beautiful thing about this podcast is you can start out not even recognizing who we're having as a guest and be completely enamored with them by the time we're finished having a conversation. So find us on the area where you listen to your podcast. Leave us a review so we can spread the word about it to other people.

Louise Palanker (01:04:42):

Yes, I highly recommend whatever Fritz just told you to do. We would love for you to join us online on Instagram and Twitter. We are at Media Path Pod and on Facebook where our show page is, media Path Podcast. And our Facebook group is called Media Path with Fritz and Weezy podcast community. You can find full episodes with all kinds of bonus visual content on our YouTube channel Media Path podcast. We would love to know what media you have been enjoying. You can contact us at our social media or email us at Media Path We would like to thank our wonderful guest, Danuta Pfeiffer. Our team includes Dina Friedman, Francesco Desmond, John Maddox, Sharon Beo, bill Filippi, Thomas Hubble, Mason Brown, and you. Our theme music is by me and John Maddox. I am Louise Planker here with Fritz Coleman and Danuta Pfeiffer, and we will see you along the media path.

Danuta Pfeiffer (01:05:34):

I'm so grateful for the two of you for being such good interviewers. You've, you've read the material, you understand.

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