Episode 65

Louise Palanker (00:00:03):

We are Media Path Podcast. I am Louise Palanker.

Fritz Coleman (00:00:07):

And I'm Fritz Coleman.

Louise Palanker (00:00:08):

Today we are heading down a treacherous media path, littered with anguish, desire, hope, doubt, deceit, and shattered hearts. It is the world of online dating, but worry not. We are traveling through this dangerous landscape with experienced guides, life coach and author of Found swiping right on me to find love. Julie Dempsey and writer of the fictional online dating Adventure trilogy Chat Connect and crash Nan McCarthy. But first Fritz, we promise to read selected excerpts from reviews left by our valued listeners. Would you like to hear one?

Fritz Coleman (00:00:41):

Uh, if, if they're complimentary to me, I don't care what they say about you. For

Louise Palanker (00:00:45):

The most part, they, uh, adore you and I and have tremendous indifference towards me. <laugh>, uh, here is one from Fad A Love 6 66. Who writes, love this podcast? Fritz is a living legend. No mention of me. How much

Fritz Coleman (00:01:00):

Did that cost?

Louise Palanker (00:01:02):

<laugh> and from Max Griffey oh nine truly interesting guests. The depth and breadth of the connections to people and stories throughout all segments of the entertainment industry the hosts have is amazing. Love their appreciation of their guests, their questions on cover, stories that haven't been heard before. A very enjoyable listen, well written review. Wow. Very nice.

Fritz Coleman (00:01:24):

We need to do that at the beginning of every show to be artificially pumped

Louise Palanker (00:01:27):

Up. That's what I'm hoping to achieve here. It's very good. Yeah. It's like if we had like a cheerleading squad going, you can do it. <laugh>. So now Fritz, what have you been watching for us? All

Fritz Coleman (00:01:36):

Right. Well, I'm glad we have people who are in concerned with, um, um, sort of emotional and psychological issues. And many of the items that show up in my show showed up in your introduction to the podcast. Yes. I'm, I'm gonna talk about the White Lotus. This was an H B O show. Now it's on H B O Maxon screaming on Prime. Uh, I, if you're a fan of Mike White, he's kind of a TV writer, director auteur. He did HBO's Enlightened, starring Laura Durner not only went one season, but I really liked it. He also wrote School of Rock, which is legendary, the Good Girl, orange County Pitch Perfect. Three hysterical movies. Each one of those Dawson's Creek and Freaks and Geeks, which was Jud AOWs start in comedy writing. The White Lotus is six episodes and is, uh, just been picked up for a second season.

(00:02:27):

I find out the White Lotus is a fictional exclusive vacation resort in Hawaii, and visitors spend a week there and the stories come out of employees interacting with the guests. And the guests are mainly rich white people. And as the hotel concierge says, the guests get everything they want, even if they don't know what they want. It's social satire looking at the problems rich white people think they have compared to the problems that Rio people actually have. It pokes into gender and race and class all while a plot slowly spins out over the six episodes. The acting is amazing. Connie Briton is fantastic. Steve Zahn, one of my favorites of all time going back to Treme, which was also on H B O, Jennifer Coolidge, who makes me laugh without even saying anything. And Molly Shannon the same. Along with a group of younger, lesser known, super talented people. The show really embraces Hawaii. The photography is spectacular, both on the surface and underwater. It's like a David Attenborough special <laugh>. The beauty of the resort plays as a giant irony. This heavenly environment contrasting against all the family and relationship angst that's playing out among the humans on the ground. People who have paid huge sums of money to get away, but they don't really get away from themselves. I really like this show. It's dark, but if you like Mike White's sense of humor, you like it.

Louise Palanker (00:03:56):

It's really a show about how the more entitled you are, the more desperately unaware you tend to be. <laugh> and it's jaw dropping because you're just like spoiled white people. Is this guy saying this to his son? What is ha what is wrong with these people? Yeah. So there's a lot there. Lots of textures, lots of layers, lots of interwoven tapestries of what

Fritz Coleman (00:04:21):

Drove me, me to it is there's a lot of conversation about this show and the other one too that you were talking about. Yeah. Perfect strangers, whatever, that, there's just a lot of conversation about it. And I was late to the ballgame as I always am with these shows. And I just, uh, I I, I tuned in out of curiosity and I'm so glad I did cuz it's, it's, it's interesting and dark and beautiful.

Louise Palanker (00:04:40):

This was a show that Ed Begley Jr. Urged us to watch.

Fritz Coleman (00:04:43):

Oh, did

Louise Palanker (00:04:43):

He? So, and I try to do everything he tells me, well,

Fritz Coleman (00:04:45):

I did what he said.

Louise Palanker (00:04:46):

Right. <laugh>, she said as she unplugged her car. All right, so here's my pick. It's called Long Way Up. It's on Apple Plus, which I have the just round of applause for Apple plus. Their shows are just good. Everything they do at Apple plus it's very high quality. So actor you and McGregor and his friend Charlie Borman travel 13,000 miles around Central and South America on electric Harley Davidson motorcycles. These two charming friends began traversing the earth together 16 years ago with long way round through Europe and Asia, then long way down through Africa, and now at electric powered vehicles, GoPros and drone shots. The series is a sort of top gear travel show buddy pick mashup this time. You un and Charlie begin their journey in uaa, the southern tip of Argentina and aim their bikes northward tours Los Angeles. Their mission statement is to go completely electric and we get to watch, for example, as they pull into a tiny frigid outpost fueled by an extension cord with a Chilean plug outlet. Imagine the stunned face of a goat herder teenager when Obiwan Kenobi rolls up on his drained electric Harley attempting to say in broken Spanish the force. She is not with me. Let us know. <laugh> <laugh>. Have you seen any of it, Fritz?

Fritz Coleman (00:05:59):

No. No, but I'm, I'm just a huge fan of his

Louise Palanker (00:06:02):

Yeah, it's just like, you just kind of sit and watch it and it's just really beautiful. It's just,

Fritz Coleman (00:06:07):

Well, look at the, this guy is, has a lot of breadth. First of all, he narrated that great series on Jerusalem, on cnn. I don't know if you saw any of that. It was spectacular mm-hmm. <affirmative> in all the politics and religious convergence there. And I mean, he did Halston and OB one Kenobi. Yeah. I mean, that's, that's about as wide of variance as you can get.

Louise Palanker (00:06:28):

Hashtag range.

Fritz Coleman (00:06:29):

Really good.

Louise Palanker (00:06:30):

Yeah. So let us welcome our guests, Nan McCarthy and Julie Dempsey. I'm gonna begin with little bio on each of them for our valued listeners. Nan McCarthy is the author of The Four Parts Since You Went Away series, the Chat Connect and Crash trilogy and the non-fiction work Lived Till I Die. A former magazine editor Nan founded Rainwater Press in 1992 and is among the earliest authors to sell her books online directly to readers. Julie Dempsey is a recovered tech executive and sought after transformational mindset coach and hypnotherapist helping her clients to break through blocks and limiting beliefs to reach their full potential personally and professionally. She believes it is necessary to be kinder to ourselves so we can be kinder to others and create the lives we desire. You have both written in different ways about online dating. Julie, your work is a memoir, a nan, you may be one of the first people to write fictional work about falling in love virtually. Can you tell us about your trilogy, nan?

Nan McCarthy (00:07:30):

Sure thing. Um, it's tells a story of Max and Bev who meet on a CompuServe forum. That's a blast from the past in the 1980s. Um, I wrote it in 1995. Um, I came from the tech industry, which it made me laugh when Julie said she's a recovering tech, uh, executive, cuz that I I totally get that. Um, so I, I worked in the tech industry and, uh, was on email since 1987, kind of immersed in the technology and, uh, I love the id I love epistolary novels. Always have. And chatting with friends said, I can't believe nobody's done a novel told through email yet. Uh, right around that time in 1991, the Griffin and Sabine trilogy came out Ah, yeah. Uh, a, a love story about two artists who correspond. And, uh, that book has the actual letters and postcards inside of it. And the following year, a book called Vox came out by Nicholson Baker, which was a phone conversation between a man and a woman on a phone sex line, <laugh>. Um, so that Vox is kind of sexy and Griffin and Sabine is a sweet romance. And so I like to describe chat as Griffin and Sabine meets Vox. So, uh, it's the story of Bevan Max two strangers getting to know each other entirely through email. There's no narrative whatsoever and it's a trilogy chat, connecting crash.

Louise Palanker (00:09:14):

Awesome. And Julie, you begin your book by, uh, frankly disclosing how you processed the mixed messages girls receive seeing yourself as valued only through being valued by someone else. Can you talk about that process and how it kind of informed your journey through online dating?

Julie Demsey (00:09:33):

Absolutely. It was a really interesting process because in the beginning I wasn't even aware of it. Um, so many of us are conditioned by society that we are to sit back and wait for the man of our dreams or the person of our dreams to, to come to us and sweep us off our feet. And we get to the point where we're so worried about them liking us, that we forget to think about who are we, who do we wanna be, and do we like them? And so that's the process that I really went through, through the book is discovering that's how I led way too many decades of my life, <laugh> and being able to change that. So I got to a point where I started thinking about who am I, who do I like? And making sure that this person that I'm considering actually deserves me. And the reason that I wrote the book is I wanna help other people to shortcut that process.

Louise Palanker (00:10:28):

Awesome. So how did you take notes? Cuz I mean, you read the book and you're thinking, how does she remember all of this? And first of all, very, very bold and brave of you to just kind of like, dive in and just say, I'm gonna attack this. I'm going to, so what, what's your process of putting out putting out your profile and then kind of like filtering through people and then deciding who you're gonna go have what you call a meet and greet, which is just kind of like a coffee or a, or a drink with, like, describe your process.

Julie Demsey (00:10:58):

Yeah, yeah. So I, I actually was taking notes when I was dating because I started thinking about writing the book. And as somebody who had come off of a marriage and was dating again after divorce, the whole idea was a little bit daunting. So actually taking notes and thinking about writing a book helped me to actually externalize what was going on and give it a little bit of distance so that I could have fun with it, enjoy it, and think of it more as entertainment and the opportunity to entertain others as I wrote, wrote this book than having to really sit with my feelings and worry about getting hurt. So the process, um, really was around that. And then just as I eased into it, starting to think about let's just go out and have some fun and really not worry about being too serious and see what may come, which on the one hand was a good process. On the other hand, it got me into a relationship that I really wasn't intentional about getting into, which caused some problems as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So not necessarily the process I'd recommend for others now that I've got a, a bit more insight.

Fritz Coleman (00:12:09):

You know, Julie, I think the great revelation in, in your work is that you discovered that you don't know what you're looking for. And as soon as you realize that it releases you to be willing to accept anything, like you just mentioned, just do it for the fun and see where it goes. And don't set strict guardrails for yourself.

Julie Demsey (00:12:31):

Absolutely. And I think that's something, you know, when I'm working with clients and interacting with others, I see happen too much. People have a very long list of must haves or can't haves or deal breakers, and that really closes us off very often from meeting the people. That might be a good match for us actually. If you talk to a lot of couples who are very successful in their relationships, many of them would actually say there's a deal breaker on their list that their partner has, yet they're very happy. So I think very often, we don't know,

Louise Palanker (00:13:08):

It's the same with homes. You're like, it has to have three and a half baths and then you wind up in a, in, in a home with only three bows and you're like, damnit. Um, but you know, we, there's things that you think are deal breakers, but they're actually not as important as you thought they were when you made your list. Did you wanna weigh in there, Nan?

Nan McCarthy (00:13:26):

Well, I just was laughing about deal breakers because when I was a little girl, my papa used to make this really weird throat sound. And I remember thinking, I hope my husband never does that <laugh>. And I've been married for 38 years and my husband makes that really weird throat sound

Louise Palanker (00:13:46):

<laugh>. I know the one you're talking about, it comes from the back of your throat.

Nan McCarthy (00:13:50):

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, I don't know, I thought that was a total deal breaker, but we've been happily married 38 years. But I do give him crap every time he does it. Like, I can't believe you're doing that. <laugh>

Louise Palanker (00:14:01):

Nan Oh, go ahead, Frise.

Fritz Coleman (00:14:03):

I, I just wanna do, uh, to ask both ladies, what was the setup to deciding to jump over the precipice and try online dating? Where were you in your own life where you said, let me try this? Because I I, I've been single for a long time. I was married for six years, but I just couldn't bring myself to do it because I thought, how would I rather be rejected <laugh> in a bar or by an algorithm, <laugh>. And so I, I've always just been afraid to do it. So where, where were you in your emotional life that said, okay, I'm going to, I'm gonna take this chance

Julie Demsey (00:14:44):

Where I was, um, about a year out of my marriage and deciding that I really wanted some more human connection. And I was living in San Francisco at the time and it was all the rage. Everybody was doing it. And I thought, you know what, I'm just going to jump in and try it. And it, it's very often, uh, or very interesting though Fritz, that you're saying you'd rather be rejected in person than by an algorithm. These days people would much rather be rejected by the algorithm than in person. And people think it's creepy now to approach some somebody in person because it's been so normalized

Fritz Coleman (00:15:25):

To do online. No, I, I I, I just meant that's a decision I'd have to make. Uh, uh, I, I understand the value of it cuz I don't drink and I don't want to go to a smoky bar and all the conversation seems to be, uh, superficial. Uh, I don't want to be rejected by either of them. Uh, but, but I, I, you know, plus I'm an only child and I've always had this issue with intimacy, so maybe online it would be much easier for me to connect that it would be in, you know, say, uh, the Cheesecake Factory

Louise Palanker (00:15:53):

<laugh>. But Nan what I was wondering is when and how did you realize that the internet offered an environment that was conducive to people forming an intimate connection relatively quickly? I mean, we know that the internet is gonna duplicate absolutely everything that exists in real life. There's gonna be a version of it online. But when did you first realize, cuz you were probably online before a lot of us with your work, that oh my gosh, people are gonna fall in love without ever having seen each other's faces,

Nan McCarthy (00:16:20):

Right? Yeah. Um, I was a tech, um, tech executive in the eighties, and of course the magazine I worked for was about technology. So we were pretty state of the art and, uh, doing email probably 1987 or so, and, uh, doing file transfers via M c I mail and dial up services back then. So, um, I was heavily involved in the technology and as part of my job, I became involved in, uh, CompuServe Professional Forum, all about digital publishing. And it was a really small, tight community of nerdy people who were really interested in desktop publishing, which was a big thing at that time. Um, it sounds so mundane now, but, um, so it was this small community on a comper forum. We got to know each other, we'd see each other at trade shows, and there was a couple that was part of this forum that started to date each other.

(00:17:30):

And this is in the late eighties, and this was a really wild new thing back then. Um, they ended up getting married, they're still married, they have grown children. But as a writer, that captured my imagination, just knowing people that, wow, they met on this forum and started chatting, never having seen each other. Like Fritz was saying, that's not like they were eyeing each other in person across the bar. Um, so it really just captured my imagination. And then more and more people around me started having flames. I myself was married, so I never actually did online dating, but I did, once I decided to start writing chat, I did, um, log onto sex chat forums under a pseudonym, uh, just to kind of get a feel for those, how those worked. I found them pretty boring actually. So what I found the most fascinating were the real life love stories that were unfolding via the internet.

Fritz Coleman (00:18:36):

Wheezy, you should describe her fantastic book. I guess it's chat, the one we were discussing before. Yeah. Through, uh, but, but, but the, but the chemistry, how they're set up, and also with Julie's book as well, so we can refer to it and people will know what we're talking about.

Louise Palanker (00:18:51):

Yeah. So Nan's books, uh, I mean, she's written lots of different books, but the books that she wrote, the trilogy, which are chat connect and crash are two people who meet on this in this form. And then they start emailing back and forth. And this is, you have to remember, this is before you could get an email on your phone. One of the characters is a married person. And so in order for her to see if she has a message from this guy that she's got a huge crush on, she has to get away and go to her computer. That was the only way that you could check these messages. So they're falling in love, but there's a huge, um, kind of guardrail I guess, that maybe you kind of put that in place for all kinds of different plot purposes, including that it's, it's a, a tragic, like a Romeo and Juliet type of scenario where they can't really quite be together.

(00:19:36):

But also it may have kind of helped jumpstart the intimacy because when you have those barriers, it's like talking to someone on a plane, you know that the plane's gonna land and you'll walk away from this person and you've just revealed everything. So it's like they have that safety net of where they're not available to one another, but you can speak to that. And then Julie's book is really just, it's a memoir. She writes about what happened to her. It's, it's nice to hear her say that she was sort of approaching it like a reporter, because as her cousin, full disclosure, I'm screaming, why are you going to meet this person? Like, you know, like Julie, turn the car around danger. Um, but yeah, so you can, you know, Julie, you can speak to that. I I were you ever scared?

Julie Demsey (00:20:25):

Absolutely. Um, and I wouldn't have thought about that in <laugh>. You just advance <laugh> of what was happening. Right. Um, but yeah, Louise, you're not the only one who, who said, what the hell were you thinking? And that, that's another large reason for why I wrote this book, because for other people out there who are single and approaching this, you know, some cautionary tales so they can be smarter than I was going through this. Um, on the whole, it wasn't scary. I have some rules around after learning, um, from a bad experience, how to really set things up to make sure I was always in a safe environment and, uh, protected from any, uh, negativity out there that, uh, could have faced me. But yeah, we, we do need to be careful, especially as females, um, to make sure that we're always being safe about how we're communicating, who we're communicating with the information that we're sharing. You know, I made sure I never gave my last name out to anybody until I knew them well. Um, I also made sure that I got their phone number before I met them. So if anything ever happened, somebody retrieved my phone, they'd find this person's phone number because on the dating apps today, people can just delete you and they disappear.

Fritz Coleman (00:21:46):

Wow. I I love both books. I thought your bravery was exemplary, Julie, but I, uh, but Nan's book is interesting because it, it plays to theater of the mind. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So these two people could create, uh, an erotic and, um, intimate environment that they wanted to, um, that they wanted the other person to feel. Which is kind of interest exciting. You, it taps into your creativity.

Louise Palanker (00:22:14):

Yeah.

Fritz Coleman (00:22:15):

I mean, it's, which you also can't do in a bar.

Louise Palanker (00:22:17):

Y Yeah. I mean, there's that safety and then that warmth, but then it quickly and neon, you can speak to this cuz you, you write about it quite well, it quickly becomes an addiction. And Julie speaks about this as well, where she's not sure, you know, she actually wants to find someone or she's just the rush of like, you know, the gamification of dating where it's, you know, how well am I doing? Did I receive this many messages and do they think I'm cute? And, you know, and these two are kind of putting their real lives in jeopardy as they continue continuously race towards that computer to see if they've received a message. And you wanted to create, I think Nan you wanted to create that, uh, that accelerating drama. Correct?

Nan McCarthy (00:23:01):

Yes. Um, really the books are about the intersection of the online life that you create and your real life. Um, and Julie talked about the safety issue. Um, because the book unfolds entirely through a messaging service. It's not a dating service, it's they meet on a professional forum and then they start exchanging private messages is a very safe way for them to talk to each other, and therefore their inhibitions kind of get freed up. And one of the taglines of the book is Tell me something you've never told anyone else before. And they have that anonymity to be able to share more of themselves than if they were meeting in a bar and talking to somebody. It's interestingly, um, this email, uh, online kind of romance harkins back to the personal ads that arose, you know, in the 17 hundreds with newspapers because you couldn't see the person's face. They could be very anonymous. And in fact, in the 18 hundreds it became a good way for gay and lesbian people to discreetly meet each other, um, because they were anonymous. So, um, the book addresses that anonymity, um, in a safe way. And, and, uh, interestingly, the dating service match.com came online the same year I published chat, which was 1995.

Fritz Coleman (00:24:41):

Well Timed na Do, do you think, um, uh, people's ability to be free and divulge themselves more deeply is the anonymity of it? Or they're just happy to have somebody who will listen? I mean, uh, um, it shows up in your stories, uh, that, that they pour their hearts out in ways that maybe they're, they they haven't done to their spouses.

Nan McCarthy (00:25:08):

Totally. Fritz, um, that's a really great observation and you can really get to know a person in a deep way, um, just by your words. And as a writer, of course, and I'm sure Julie relates to this, you know, words are life. And so their whole relationship develops by these intimate stories they tell each other that they haven't shared with, um, their spouse or their person they're dating in real life. So, um, definitely you can kind of silo down, uh, and get to know a person very deeply this way.

Louise Palanker (00:25:53):

It's also, there's, there's this, um, purification of the romance, you know, without the drudgery of the day-to-day or the, the throat clicking or, or whatever it is that you're not seeing that part of it. You're just seeing this person ado me and you're seeing this exchange of language which can be absolutely enticing and intoxicating for people who love words as both of your characters love words. And so they're just getting this like, like, uh, a straight shot of this love heroin. Uh, you know, it's not diluted <laugh> by any of right. Any of life.

Nan McCarthy (00:26:27):

And it's very substantive because this is, um, taking place before the worldwide web before you could exchange photos. So in the beginning of their relationship, they don't even know what the other person looks like. So they're really connecting on an emotional level.

Louise Palanker (00:26:48):

Now, Julie, you talk in your book about how people will, uh, present themselves online and your whole modus opera operandi is to get offline quickly and go meet the person, not have this long exchange of, of words and, and get to real life as quickly as possible. And then you find out that people aren't always how they're presenting themselves.

Julie Demsey (00:27:09):

Things have really shifted and I read Nan's books over the weekend and absolutely love them. And they harken back to me to, you know, a time when things were much more simple because we didn't have dating apps where you have hundreds of thousands of options. And because there are so many options out there now, people feel like there's always somebody else. So instead of spending all of that time getting to know somebody, for me, it's better just to get to know them in person quickly to see if there is that value, because there, there is that level of chemistry which you can't know about until you actually meet someone. So I've had experiences where we've had long conversations and the words were beautiful, and then when we met, there was absolutely nothing to say. So for me it's, it, it's partly that level of chemistry, it's partly seen that a person really is who they say they are because there's so much opportunity these days to really hide behind the internet in the online world and to create a persona. So you do see a lot more married people, you see a lot of fake people. You see a lot of people saying they're one person and then they're actually another. And so for me, getting to that point where you meet quickly, you can sort all of that out

Louise Palanker (00:28:26):

And you, you don't give any names in your book. You give people titles. So I sometimes I'm reading through this and I'm thinking this person has an agenda that doesn't include meeting and knowing Julie, for example, the boob. So let's talk about the boob and then let's talk about the widower. Cuz those are two of the more interesting encounters for me.

Julie Demsey (00:28:48):

Yes, yes. And, and you know, people don't have names. You'll also notice there's no places, oh, there's no location. I did

Louise Palanker (00:28:56):

Notice

Julie Demsey (00:28:56):

That behind this is that this could happen to anybody anywhere mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I want people to be able to listen to these stories and say, oh yes, this could happen to me, you know, I could see myself here and because of reading this, I'll do it differently. Um, but the boob that's, I'm sure the one you were saying, Louise, that you should, I should have not never gotten in the car. Yes. He'd gone to meet this person.

Louise Palanker (00:29:18):

To me it felt like he was a collector, that he was just putting pictures on the wall with the brass eyes to see how many he could collect. And then he would jerk off to that he had no interest in actually ever meeting you.

Julie Demsey (00:29:30):

Well, and for all I know, the, the picture that he showed and everything else was not a real person. But I was very early in the process and didn't have the understanding. Yeah. So this is all new to me. I have somebody who's getting a little bit, um, you know, towards the sexting side of things, which I'd never experienced. And it was new and exciting and I was playing with my boundaries of how far am I willing to go, you know, how, how sexy should this be? Or shouldn't this be? Is this okay or not? And because of it, I kind of let my boundaries down. And, you know, the, the thing this, that the boob has in common with the widower who I actually did meet and experience, both of them in hindsight were grooming me. Hmm.

(00:30:19):

And I didn't see that or understand it at the time because you get so caught up and here's this person who is exciting and interested in me, and you've got all this adrenaline and you know, they're basically love bombing you to a certain extent, which is a tactic that is used mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that's again, part of why I wanted to get this out there so other people can see and understand and not have to live through it themselves and go, ah, this is a bad character. I need to make a better decision here. I'm not gonna meet this person, I'm gonna cut them off immediately.

Louise Palanker (00:30:52):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And that comes from, and you know, the widower was someone dangerous. He was lying to you about hi, being a widower. You found out you did some detective work on him.

Julie Demsey (00:31:01):

Exactly. And you know, that's something that literally just came to me. All of a sudden, my intuition just said, there's something not right here. In fact, I was watching a TV show that had a similar instance where, um, the main characters, um, husband had passed away and she was sleuthing trying to find out what had happened and found out he was having an affair with somebody who had said she was dead. And all of a sudden I thought, oh, that's funny. And then I went, oh my gosh, wait a minute, <laugh>, could this be real? And you know, I never would've guessed with the amount of communication I was having with this person. Um, and what was going on that, that he was lying about his wife passing. And then come to find out he'd given me enough information as well about his name, his last name, the family name. So I went and looked her up online and found out, lo and behold, you know, she'd been posting on Facebook just a few weeks ago. She wasn't dead for a few years.

Louise Palanker (00:32:01):

Yeah. He also seemed to forget how many kids he had, oftentimes <laugh> like, what that happen red flag,

Fritz Coleman (00:32:07):

You know? Uh, Julie, it's interesting because you're, you're talking, this is like a, um, um, a a grayer version of predators online looking for young girls and, and you know, pedophiles and that sort of thing. And, and, and what you're talking about as to the grooming. But I, I guess guys can go online and fish for somebody and they make some suppositions about people online. They're thinking why would a, why would a young woman want to go online and find a date? She obviously either a, a family tragedy recently or she's broken up recently. They can make some suppositions about you and then push those buttons and see which work when they get to you. Do you know what I mean? Very much

Julie Demsey (00:32:51):

So. Yeah. No, that, that's very much the

Fritz Coleman (00:32:53):

Case. Like a psychic or a tarot card reader, the mere fact that you walked into their cheesy storefront looking for answers immediately tells you about some, tells you something about that person. So they

Louise Palanker (00:33:04):

Push on doors. Are they the one that's open they go

Fritz Coleman (00:33:06):

Through. That's right. That's what it, so it's interesting.

Louise Palanker (00:33:09):

Do you know you had something? So,

Dina (00:33:11):

Um, I just to admit, I'm a huge fan of Nan. I read her books when I was a teenager. It was the late nineties. And, um, what you have to remember and what's really important about like, thinking about NAN'S books in that, in the context of that time is in the late nineties, it was like the internet was like full of promise. And I think that started with like the tech community and the people that were like more involved with like technology with um, computing and the internet and stuff. But it was starting right, like at that time starting to infiltrate more of the rest of the world where people were like, oh my God, the internet is just gonna be the best thing that ever happened. It was more

Louise Palanker (00:33:54):

Altruistic than it ultimately became

Dina (00:33:56):

As money became. Yeah. And think about all the things that we're gonna be able to accomplish. And so what's incredible about Nan's books is that they're amazing romance books that like, have everything that you would want from that genre, but they also kind of address like, um, you know, for Weezy and Julie, this is like fresh on your mind cuz you just read them that part about like, when Bev talks about how she met a woman in real life that she became friends with mm-hmm. <affirmative> through the forum. And it turned out to, she turned out to be like a horrible person, <laugh>, even though they had these great conversations online mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and just like the whole idea of, you know, that it's not, the internet is not gonna be everything that it's, you might have been cracked up to be,

Louise Palanker (00:34:42):

It's just gonna mirror life

Dina (00:34:43):

Ultimately. Yeah. Yeah.

Louise Palanker (00:34:45):

So all the extremes and everything in between.

Dina (00:34:47):

So now we're in a place like 20, you know, plus years later where, so what Julie writes about and you know, we're so much more aware of like the dangers of what can happen online and it's like everyone has their own. So we're like in a place where we're a prime to be ed. Like we're ready to learn the things that we need to know to be saved.

Fritz Coleman (00:35:08):

Not only that, now we have Google. So if you hook up with a guy you can Google to make sure he is not a felon.

Dina (00:35:14):

Right. Or, or, but then you also would know, right. That if he can Google you, uh, if you can Google him, he can Google you. Right. And everything that that entails. So

Louise Palanker (00:35:23):

Once you meet the person, Julie, you know each other's names, right. Or do you still keep your last name to yourself even after you meet the person?

Julie Demsey (00:35:31):

I still keep my last name to myself till I decide that I wanna have this person in my life. Okay. Um, because I think it's re you need to be careful. So there is a lot of Googling going on, but there's also still a lot of anonymity on the dating apps and people can get away with a lot of things that they wouldn't be able to get away with in real life. Mm-hmm.

Louise Palanker (00:35:53):

<affirmative>, is there a lot more scamming now that that's down to an art form where they've got like some sort of warehouse of Nigerian young men kind of creating Yes. Profiles? Yes. And just kind of just chat Your job buddy is just chat with her, just love bomb her all day long until we get that $20,000 so we can move to her city.

Julie Demsey (00:36:14):

Absolutely. And that's in course, and it goes in both directions. You know, there, there are women out there that are, are doing similar things now. I don't experience that side of it. I've heard a little bit about it. It seems to be more in the realm of paid sex than trying to scam overall. Um, but I think, you know, to the point about the direction the internet went, it's gone down a dark negative hole. <laugh> in my opinion. When we look at online dating and if we look at, you know, the romance that Nan created in her books and the promise that was there, we could have built very different things to allow for better romance and better connection. And, you know, I'm hopeful we get to a point where we're doing that,

Louise Palanker (00:36:58):

But I see, I

Dina (00:36:59):

See. And I think that's why we need to be like, educated. Right. And we need to, and it's like everyone, like for example, like older people, they're at a point in their life where they need to be educated on like the scams that can be perpetrated against them. Yeah. And younger people who are dating, they need to be educated on what can happen, you know, in that situation. So everyone just like needs to, the, the important thing is that like we all know mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that there's a lot for us to, to

Louise Palanker (00:37:26):

Be, to be aware of, to be aware of. And I think that Nan's book is, is a warning because these two people should not have been falling in love. It wasn't good for either one of them. He was having this kind of like, emotional and then later a sexual affair with a married person. And he didn't seem to have a huge amount of trepidation about that. I mean, maybe a little nagging, but it didn't prevent him from doing what he did. She was married and he was doing something to her husband that wasn't okay and she was doing something to her husband that wasn't okay. So Nan's book is kind of like, okay, you guys walk carefully, it's gonna be really, really enticing and very intoxicating. But there's, it's, you still have real life that you have to walk through once you close your computer.

Fritz Coleman (00:38:15):

Let me ask Hannah question. So not not just in your books Nan, but generally the way people interact online and these virtual relationships they set up, uh, do they always sort of lean toward the idealized romance? This is how I would love to have a relationship with somebody. So this is what I'm typing in here. Or are they honest about their real lives or both? You know,

Nan McCarthy (00:38:40):

Do, do I think it de i I think it depends on the person's motives. Um, and I have to tell Julie that I read her book over the weekend as well, and I really appreciate it, um, for its vulnerability. Uh, writing nonfiction is a totally different ballgame than making stuff up. Um, so I, I think that's what makes her book so good is the vulnerability. And as far as my books, I tried to show that vulnerability as well. Um, quickly to address Dean's Point too, that was a time of great hope for the internet. And, um, it, it seemed like there was so much good possibility. People were so supportive of each other and had each other's backs on that. Um, but there were kind of warning signs about people not being who they said they were. Um, so it, it is a cautionary tale, uh, in many regards.

(00:39:42):

And through fiction, that's a safe way to explore some uncomfortable and, um, maybe toxic sit situations. So that's why I chose to write fiction rather than maybe a bio of the people I knew who fell on in, in love online, because that really gave me a chance to explore, um, extramarital affairs and kind of, uh, getting emotionally intimate with a person that maybe you're not physically intimate with, is that having an affair. All of those questions were kind of just popping up at that time. Those were all new issues. Like, am I cheating on my husband if I'm having this really intimate conversation with

Fritz Coleman (00:40:35):

What's the answer to that question? That's a great, great question. If you are, uh, allowing yourself to have an intimate exchange with somebody that is cheating on the intimacy of your marriage, isn't it? I think it's cheating.

Nan McCarthy (00:40:47):

Yeah. I I would agree. Um, I would think so too. And I think at that time with everything being so new, people were kind of grappling with that. Like, well, I'm, you know, we're not actually having sex, we're just talking. So, you know, is this wrong? But the story of Bevan Max kind of, um, as the third book in the trilogy is titled Crash, you know, things kind of come crashing down that, um, even without the physical intimacy setting that aside, um, you can really wreck your real life relationships, um, by devoting so much of your heart and mind

Julie Demsey (00:41:32):

To someone outside of your marriage.

Louise Palanker (00:41:35):

Yeah. It's like you're saying, I I'm willing to be constantly distracted as I go through the rest of my life. And, uh, you know, the, it's certainly we're all vulnerable to everything that the internet presents to us. Right. That's why it keeps presenting things to us. Cuz it's, it's just a click away. Right. You know, anything, you know, you can go into debt, you can gamble, you can have virtual sex. It's just all right there.

Fritz Coleman (00:42:00):

Can I ask these ladies a very current question? Yes. You know, the whistle, I don't know if you've been paying attention to this in Australia, would've no reason to, but, um, the whistleblower from Facebook testified this morning, uh, having, uh, released thousands of documents that proved that Instagram was having, uh, setting up a negative feedback loop for young women and causing them to have low self-esteem and even pushing them to suicide and everything. I I think that's p part of the end game of what you're talking about. We started out with hope with the internet, and this is where we have devolved to over time. Do you have any opinion about what we're experiencing right now?

Julie Demsey (00:42:43):

It, it's funny you mentioned that because I haven't seen the testimony because I was sleeping, but I sent her a message yesterday. Did

Louise Palanker (00:42:50):

You? You're so

Julie Demsey (00:42:51):

Brave. I Yeah. Saying I wanna talk, I wanna change this with you. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Because I, I think this is a huge problem that we're facing. And I, I've got in my mind a way we can do this better and we can do it different. And I really wanna help be the change. So

Louise Palanker (00:43:10):

Julie, I wanna, I wanna ask you, what can we say to young girls to help them understand their own agency in love, sex, and relationships? Or are we so programmed to seek acceptance that this understanding will come only through life and failure and experience? You know, what, how can, with everything that's put in their path, including Instagram and Snapchat and TikTok with everything that's put in their path that they're salivating for by the time they're 10, how can we change that narrative with little kids

Julie Demsey (00:43:39):

By having that conversation and helping them to understand their value, their choices, that they have choice and that their voice matters and who they are? I, I had the privilege of speaking with 200, uh, girls two weeks ago who are in year eight at school. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and actually talking to them about confidence and self-love and self-belief, and having these conversations early on. You know, when I was young, I was taught that I needed to attract a partner. I wasn't taught that I needed to be really strong in myself, in who I am. And if we can start having these conversations and help them to understand what they have inside their mind and how they're thinking about themself is actually going to form all of their relationships that they have, and it starts with the relationship they have with themselves that's going to give them so much more strength as they move out into the world and interact with

Louise Palanker (00:44:39):

Others. Mm-hmm. You know what the greatest thing is about school kids in, in Australia hats. They, they all wear hats for, it's, it's the cutest thing. Why is that? There's a lot of sun and they're pale. People that came from England, they have no business being there and they need hats. Yeah.

Fritz Coleman (00:44:57):

<laugh>. Yeah. You have a fascinating wife. Uh, Julie, you're a clinical hypnotherapist. I support that science because I've had family members who have quit smoking through hypnotherapy. Um, I don't know how you could have trouble with men because you could just hypnotize them and get 'em to do what you want.

Louise Palanker (00:45:16):

<laugh>, and she's adorable.

Fritz Coleman (00:45:17):

Oh my God. She had the best smile in the, in the, in the southern hemisphere.

Louise Palanker (00:45:21):

<laugh>.

Julie Demsey (00:45:23):

If I had a dime for every time a guy said to me once I told them I'm a hypnotherapist, are you going to, you know, put me under your spell and make me do any, anything you want. <laugh>

Louise Palanker (00:45:34):

That shows the fear of men. That's because the fear is that men are already hypnotized by women and they know that coming in like, <laugh>, I'm vulnerable

Fritz Coleman (00:45:42):

Here. I bet I I wanna know how is there, is there a self-test I can do like an at-home test kit that will prove to me that I can be hypnotized? Cuz I don't think I can be hypnotized. I'm too self-conscious.

Louise Palanker (00:45:54):

You don't have to be hypnotized.

Fritz Coleman (00:45:56):

I'm pushing power. It's particularly to a female. Julie,

Louise Palanker (00:45:58):

Julie's gonna tell you this, Fritz, it's not about being hypnotized, it's just about closing your eyes and listening to the suggestions. You don't have to fall under a spell, but go ahead Julie. Yeah. Help him understand how

Julie Demsey (00:46:10):

It, the reality of the matter is anybody, um, can be in hypnosis, but if you say, I don't wanna h be hypnotized, you are not going to get into that state of mind. So you, you've experienced hypnosis on a daily basis when you're watching a TV show or a movie and your mind wanders and you don't, or when you've been driving down the freeway and you missed your exit. Oh, so

Fritz Coleman (00:46:36):

That's

Louise Palanker (00:46:36):

Hypnosis. Yeah. It's also that moment right before you fall

Fritz Coleman (00:46:39):

Asleep. I've been calling it dementia all the

Louise Palanker (00:46:39):

Time. It's the moment right before you fall asleep and it's the moment after you wake up. There's lots of moments during the day where you just kind of like zone out. So all a hypnotherapist ever asks of you is just close your eyes and listen to the words that she's saying. It doesn't matter whether you go under or not, it's really just about like boosting your subconscious mind to be, to be stronger when you go through the rest of the challenges of your day. Is that correct, Julie?

Fritz Coleman (00:47:02):

I sort of just asked you the question,

Louise Palanker (00:47:04):

<laugh>. Well, I've, I've, you I've been going to a hypnotherapist like for the last 15 years. Oh, I didn't know that. I don't go anymore. I just listen to, I religiously listen to the recording every night before I go to sleep at night. Hmm. And it's helped me more than anything else in my life. I'm an advocate now,

Fritz Coleman (00:47:18):

My family members who did patches and chemicals and beating themselves with a baseball bat that couldn't quit smoking. And they, they owe their, the health to the hypnotherapist

Louise Palanker (00:47:30):

And hyp and hypno and Julie, they all work differently, I guess, but hypnotherapist also listen to your problems just like any other therapist. So it's cleansing in that way too. Correct.

Julie Demsey (00:47:39):

Exactly. I, I mean, the big part of it is our minds are so powerful and we just need to learn how to utilize them in a way that better serves us. And that's what, you know, I'm there to support clients in with that letting go of limiting beliefs and things that are holding us back because our, our conscious mind, we're all smart people. If we could fix this on our own, we would. It's that subconscious mind that we need to be able to access and really shift our thoughts in there so that we can, uh, get to the place we wanna be.

Fritz Coleman (00:48:09):

What, what, what are, if you had to name the top three issues that people come to you with that they would like to change about themselves, what are they?

Julie Demsey (00:48:17):

Yeah. Um, anxiety. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> feeling like they're not enough. Um, and fear of public speaking is a big one. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You

Louise Palanker (00:48:31):

Don't suffer from that. Fritz, you're good.

Fritz Coleman (00:48:34):

No, but I, but I, uh, I, but they, I'm, you know, I think, uh, thinking I'm not enough is a fairly common thing. Oh,

Louise Palanker (00:48:41):

You're, you're more than enough.

Fritz Coleman (00:48:42):

I, well, I, but well now you tell me, uh, my age, it does me very little Good. I've been telling you.

Nan McCarthy (00:48:47):

But

Fritz Coleman (00:48:48):

Yeah, no,

Julie Demsey (00:48:49):

The negative self-talk that we have going in our head and being able to shift that,

Fritz Coleman (00:48:54):

Not, not that I'm connecting this to your profession in any way. You're a clinical hypnotherapist. I used to work at a comedy club in Encino called The Laugh Stop, and I would open for a stage hypnotist, and apparently humor is counterintuitive to what they try to create on the stage. So before I would open for this woman, she'd say, try not to be very funny for like five minutes before <laugh> and, which was part of my job, that's what I was being paid for. But it was really interesting. They wanted to create a a an era of mystery and, and menace and wonder as opposed to, you know, people releasing their stress through laughter. It was really interesting, and I'm not comparing it to what you do in any way, but it was interesting.

Julie Demsey (00:49:42):

Or, or maybe she was hypnotizing you and realized that the negative suggestion would actually get you out there to be even funnier.

Fritz Coleman (00:49:49):

That's very interesting. It didn't work. I'll say that. I'm, I just, I was a zombie and introduced her and that was the end of it.

Nan McCarthy (00:49:56):

Yeah. I, I would like to ask Julie, as a writer and a hypnotist, I've never been officially hypnotized, but I feel that writing is a form of hypnosis. Ooh. Because you're putting your mind into a zone that's really a whole different level from your everyday consciousness.

Fritz Coleman (00:50:18):

That's really interesting. And

Nan McCarthy (00:50:20):

So I'm wondering what Julie thinks of that.

Julie Demsey (00:50:23):

Yeah. I I I would call that a state of flow,

Nan McCarthy (00:50:26):

Right?

Julie Demsey (00:50:26):

Yeah. And that's when we get ourselves into that perfect whi which is really no different than a hypnotic state because we're working on things that we need to explore and shift. But that is getting into state of flow as well. And, you know, athletes do that, writers do it, performers do it. Um, the more that we can get ourselves into that state, the easier things seem to happen. And

Fritz Coleman (00:50:53):

Is that the visionary thing? Like you have to imagine that you're having success at whatever you're about to attempt. It's that kind of a thing, right?

Julie Demsey (00:51:02):

Absolutely.

Louise Palanker (00:51:03):

Absolutely. I think, you know, you've been there if you look up and you're a little bit disoriented, so I think Fritz, you've been there because you go into these deep writing trances where you write

Fritz Coleman (00:51:15):

Oh, no, I, I totally related to what Nan said. I think so too. Even if I'm not productive, I just put my mind into, and the, and the discipline of sitting in front of the blank paper and doing it is, uh, I, I could, I could connect that to

Louise Palanker (00:51:27):

Hypnosis mm-hmm. <affirmative> and if it's playing music or Yeah. Even playing a video game can put you in that kind of state where you, you stop and you look up and the rest of mm-hmm. <affirmative>, your room is still there and you're like, oh, okay. And just takes a moment. That's when you know that you've, you're kind of in that, in sports they call it the peak experience. I think we don't always get there, but we, we can strive for it by just pulling, immersing ourselves in the activity rather than overthinking what we're doing. Right. Is that what you were thinking then where you sort of become the characters? You're just typing, it's like they're talking through you, you're a conduit.

Nan McCarthy (00:52:02):

Well, and it's also a problem, writing is a problem solving endeavor. Um, so when you're in the flow and in the zone, um, you still might hit a roadblock of, you know, okay, what's gonna happen next with this character? And when you walk away from it, go take a shower, walk the dog, go to sleep, you might wake up in the morning like, ah, okay, I know what's gonna happen. And that's your subconscious mind is working on that in the background as soon as you free yourself to think about something else. So it, it's, it's really powerful experience.

Fritz Coleman (00:52:39):

Are either of you ladies working on something that we can talk about now? I mean, beyond the, your three books, Nan and Julie, this one, other than your regular career, what, what are we working on? Are there future writings that we're gonna learn about?

Nan McCarthy (00:52:52):

I'll go first. Sure. Um, I just finished a, uh, quartet called since you went Away. Um, and Fritz, I read in your bio that you're a Navy veteran. That's correct. Um, so this might interest you. It's, um, I, I went back to my epistolary, um, style and I wrote a book, um, told entirely through emails of a woman writing emails to her husband who's in the Marine Corps serving a year in Iraq.

Louise Palanker (00:53:23):

Oh my

Nan McCarthy (00:53:24):

Goodness. And, and it's only the women, the woman's emails. We don't hear from the husband at all. The entire story is told from what she's writing to him. So you kind of have to fill in the blanks of what's happening on his side. I kind of call it a war story without the war. So, um, there's, uh, teenage kids in the family, there's, uh, veterans who are friends of the family, and you're following the stories of all these different people in this family's orbit. Um, and you are learning what it's like to be a military family, and it's showing entirely all that. And I saw that you also, both of you are fans of T C M. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and my inspiration for the book, um, I happened to be watching T C M when my own husband was deployed to Iraq in 2008.

Fritz Coleman (00:54:26):

Oh my.

Nan McCarthy (00:54:27):

And I watched, um, since you went away the 1944 film Yeah. With Claudette Colbert and Joseph Cotton. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I fell in love with the movie. It's all about the woman and her two daughters at home, while the dad's off in World War ii. Yeah. And it's based on a novel actually written by Margaret Buell Wilder, which is also an epistolary novel, um, called since You Went Away. And I'm watching that and I'm like, why hasn't this been updated for modern times? We need this story for modern military families. So that's kind of the genesis of my current series. I just, it, it took me eight years to write and I just finished book four at the end of last year.

Fritz Coleman (00:55:15):

That sounds wonderful. How about you, Julia? Are you any new writing projects?

Julie Demsey (00:55:20):

Um, the writing I'm doing is really just articles at this point in time. Um, I think I've got another book in me, but I'm, I'm not quite there with that, I'm focusing a little bit more on the dating side of things in terms of what can we do to shift online dating and exploring what could come next into how we make the internet and online dating, uh, better place for us in the future.

Fritz Coleman (00:55:45):

L l let me ask you this, because it's advanced from the time you wrote your book and, and advanced from the time Nan wrote her books in the nineties, but when you signed up for say match.com or uh, old white guys.com or whatever it is you're looking for, do they vet the people at all before they put them up? It's totally free form, first Amendment,

Julie Demsey (00:56:08):

Totally free form. Wow. Which is why you don't have to actually be who you say you are. Um, you know, whether that's just lying about your, your age, your, um, relationship status, where you're living, <laugh>, your height, anything <laugh>.

Louise Palanker (00:56:25):

I mean, they can grab a photo from anywhere. And you know, it's like sort of everything is kind of dating in a way because even Facebook, I get probably two or three fake profile friend requests a day. And you can tell it's fake because the, their profile picture is the latest thing they posted. In other words, it's like, this is your most current thing was this profile picture that you just, and it's usually showing them, like in a pilot hat, holding a doggy, you know, something that women would find veil and sensitive and they don't have any other friends and you're friending me. Uh, you know, you're putting together your profile and I'm the first person that you need to be friends with. Like, do you have any other friends besides me? Because you can tell. The next thing is they're going to tell you that they're in love with you and try to get money out of you. So it's ha it's happens <laugh> everywhere. It's all over the internet.

Julie Demsey (00:57:20):

Yeah. It's on Instagram now. So, you know, kids are sliding into the dms. Right, right. On Instagram. And, um, I'm starting to get some of those too, with guys sliding into my dms saying they wanna get to know me and this and that. And I can tell they're the same exact profile as the fake accounts and the online dating. Okay. You know, there's a lot of things that they have in common. They're very often, especially in my age range, they say they're widowers or even, you know, when I was younger, this was happening now as well. They say they're widowers because your heartstrings go out to them. They've got children that they're not able to see very often. They're often working in a different place, you know, and, and, and very often on the oil rigs for some reason. Oh yeah. They're on boards. If there's certain language they say they're God-fearing or, you know, they're looking for, for their soulmate. Like there's certain language that you see again and again that these predators use. So the good thing is they're not smart enough to change up that language. Like the, the farms you're talking about, Louise, where you've got all these guys sitting in a back room, right. Like they all use the same language. Right,

Louise Palanker (00:58:26):

Right, right. You're savvy and I'm savvy ish, but like if your mom went onto a dating site, she, you know, or anybody in their seventies, really, they, we have to warn these people cuz they have a lot of money and they're looking for love and they're, they could fall pre, they don't know that this is all going on.

Julie Demsey (00:58:45):

And it happens regularly. And that's why specifically my mom isn't doing it right now. She's waiting for me to build something better and safer.

Louise Palanker (00:58:53):

<laugh>. All right. So what are your ideas? What are your thoughts in terms of what you would build?

Julie Demsey (00:58:57):

Yeah, first of all, I'd build something, um, where you don't have these deal breakers, right. Um, where you have to actually connect before you, you see each other so that there's actual substance where people can't just disappear. Um, because I think that's a huge safety problem that you just unmatch. And, and there's a lot of things that you can do to help somebody, somebody, first of all become, um, stronger in themselves so that they can be a better player, player is the wrong word. Um, <laugh>,

Louise Palanker (00:59:29):

Participant

Julie Demsey (00:59:31):

<laugh>, so that they can be a better potential. And, and the reality of the matter is we're not all looking for relationships. Some people are just looking for that one night stand, but creating a place where it's okay to say that's what I'm, I'm looking for. So people are actually honest about what it is they're looking for. And you can match people together that have the same interest, whether it's a one night stand, a weak fling, you know, a long-term relationship. There's no judgment, but there's just honesty.

Fritz Coleman (01:00:00):

Have we gotten to a point where there can be a halfway step? So you, you, you play your instincts and you think, I, I think I'm ready to go for coffee with this man in a public place. And so you arrange that, but can there be a halfway step, like maybe a Zoom call or FaceTime or something like that, sort of a halfway step to in-person? Because if you, you could have a real visual interaction with somebody, the rest of your instincts would pick in, pick up and, and may maybe you would ward yourself off of bad behavior.

Julie Demsey (01:00:33):

Yeah, well absolutely. And that's been happening a lot more during Covid, right? When people couldn't get out, that's how people were interacting and actually having a dinner date together where you each cook at your own home and come together and have a meal online. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So a lot more of that's happening, but there's still some issues with that. So I read a story about a couple who, you know, just formed this relationship, fell completely in love, moved in together, and then restrictions were lifted and they went to a restaurant together for a meal and he stopped snapping at the wave trips. Oh

Louise Palanker (01:01:06):

God.

Julie Demsey (01:01:07):

<laugh>. And she's like, I can't be with somebody who treats someone like that. Oh. So, you know, there's deal

Nan McCarthy (01:01:12):

Breaker <laugh>. Yeah.

Louise Palanker (01:01:16):

No snapping, no <laugh>, because you,

Nan McCarthy (01:01:18):

I had a lot of dms from, uh, guys, military, military guys mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, that they've obviously swiped some photos off of some legitimate military person's profile mm-hmm. <affirmative> and they're portraying themselves as military people. But along the lines of what Julie was saying about people portraying themselves as widows and Christians and, you know, single parents, that kind of thing.

Fritz Coleman (01:01:47):

But that's a finite thing though. So you build this great thing and this woman thinks you're this handsome kernel from the Air Force, and then it's time to meet and you're a Nome. You know what I mean? It's, you're, you're not at all what you

Louise Palanker (01:01:58):

Represented or they never show up cuz they're really just trying to get your money or, or your, your brass size. They just, they have something they want from you and they're never actually going to show up

Nan McCarthy (01:02:09):

<laugh>

Julie Demsey (01:02:10):

Maybe. So, but, but it's amazing. Some of them do show up and they're, you know, 10 years older than their last picture in one case that's not in the book. Um, missing a front tooth.

Nan McCarthy (01:02:20):

<laugh>. Yes. I love it. Lovely.

Louise Palanker (01:02:24):

Yeah.

Dina (01:02:24):

Um, I just wanted to say real quick before we wrap up that, um, and Julie, I don't know if you just wanna weigh in on it really fast. Um, it seems like with it's, uh, like a generational thing, um, that the younger generation, the current, like Gen Z I guess teens, people in their early twenties are much more comfortable with honesty, with vulnerability, maybe more so than any previous generation. So I think that that's the generation and like, you know, now there's, it used to be in the days when, you know, Nan wrote her books, there was some stigma attached maybe to like, meeting people online Now that is totally, you know, out the window, especially after Covid and everything. So I just feel like maybe this is the generation that holds the power to change, you know, the way people meet and you know, how they, how they meet and how they behave and how they live online.

Julie Demsey (01:03:18):

I would love for that to be the case. Um, with the younger people that I've worked with, I, I've not seen that's the case. So when they're maybe talking with their friends, they're showing that level of vulnerability, but it, when it gets into dating, they're, there's still that fear of somebody's not going to like me and they're not actually showing that vulnerability. They're putting up walls. And because they're more of an online generation, um, the conversations I'm having, they're actually less able to connect and know how to really have that deep meaningful. So while I'd like to think that is the case, um, I think there's probably some education around it in terms of that self-esteem, that self-confidence and remembering how to really show up, um, in that vulnerable way that's necessary. But I'd love to have a further conversation with you about that.

Louise Palanker (01:04:13):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I think when it comes to love and romance, we're completely different people than we are with our family, than we are in our careers. There's a different vulnerability that you come to the table with. And so neither party is really behaving quite like themselves until they're well into the relationship and they take these wobbly steps towards that. And so the whole thing is just, it's definitely a danger zone in terms of our ownership of our own character and our own confidence. That's what makes,

Nan McCarthy (01:04:43):

And also with, with young people with their devices, that's a real roadblock to intimacy as well. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> that they're just, um, so glued to their devices that they're really missing out on a lot of opportunities to have that eye contact and human connection. Yeah.

Louise Palanker (01:05:01):

And they have a lot of training in like, sort of creating a persona that perhaps isn't the real them and that, you know, romance demands the real, the real them. And they're not, they're not ready to reveal who that is.

Dina (01:05:13):

It's that darkness of the internet. It's that it used to be like, it complimented our life and now it's like become our life and, you know, that might not be the best thing.

Louise Palanker (01:05:24):

Yeah. It's just always, I think romance is always gonna be a tricky area, which makes it so fascinating. Right. Which most of our songs are about and most of our movies are about right. So I wanna thank our guests for joining us, Fritz. How can more people find this wonderful program? Well,

Fritz Coleman (01:05:36):

If you enjoyed this episode, I can't imagine that you didn't of Media Path. It would help us to be more discoverable by potential new listeners. If you would leave us a quick review on Apple Podcast, and if you're new here and this is your first time with us, please check out our back catalog. You might even find some binge-worthy stuff. And, and we will read your review on the Air is Weezy did at the top of this episode. And it's fun to hear from you. It doesn't even have to be perfect and laboratory like these two were, it can be marginal and we'll get a kick outta that

Louise Palanker (01:06:06):

Too. Yeah, you can just show a general preference for Fritz. That's okay.

Fritz Coleman (01:06:08):

Please. Uh, we had Gary Puckett, the Castels, Henry Winkler, Keith Morrison, lots of wonderful people. Bill Medley, Mark Summers, Richard Sterban, the Livingston Brothers, and the list goes on and on. We've had, what, 64 episodes now?

Louise Palanker (01:06:22):

I think this is episode 65.

Fritz Coleman (01:06:23):

65. There's plenty in there that you will love and please do it. And, and we'd be overjoyed if you took a moment to share your thoughts with us or recommend us to a friend.

Louise Palanker (01:06:32):

Yes. Just 65 hours of your life. That's all we're really asking. <laugh>, we would love for you to join us online on Instagram and Twitter, or we are at Media Path Pod and on Facebook where we are, media Path podcasts. You can find full episodes with all kinds of great bonus visual content on our YouTube channel Media Path podcast. We would love to know what media you have been enjoying. You can contact us at our social media or email us at Media Path podcasts@gmail.com. We wanna thank our wonderful guests, Nan McCarthy and Julie Dempsey. Our team includes Dean Friedman, Francesco dama, John Maddox, Sharon Beo, bill Fiac, Thomas Hubble, Mason Brown, and you. Our theme music is by me and John Maddox. I'm Louise Planker here with Fritz Coleman, and we will see you along the media path.

(01:07:23):

Thank you.

Fritz Coleman (01:07:24):

Thank you. So fun. What what time is it in Sydney right now?