Louise Palanker (00:00:04):

(00:00:04):

Welcome to Media Path. I am Louise Palanker.

Fritz Coleman (00:00:07):

I'm Fritz

Louise Palanker (00:00:08):

Coleman. Did you know that you are currently enjoying show number one 14? Fritz and I have scoured through movies, books, and television to locate for you the finest cuts of programming sustenance. And we've had the honor of talking with such icons as Henry Winkler, pat Boone, Adam Schiff, Keith Morrison, and what's the math on this? 109 or 110 other fabulous people. So dive into our captivating catalog, subscribe, tell a Friend, explore, and remember to hydrate. But before you do any of the above, keep listening to this particular episode because today on the show we've got famous podcasting pioneers, Tom and Dan, Tom Van and Dan Dennis. Their show is called A Mediocre Time with Tom and Dan, and I don't want to question their judgment, but I actually had a fine time listening to them and Fritz and I had a blast being guests on their show. Very interesting. And now here they are returning that favor. But first Fritz and I have some recommending to do so. Fritz, what have you got? All

Fritz Coleman (00:01:04):

Right. I'm gonna talk about a movie that's only out in theaters right now. It's tar starring Kate Blanchett. She plays Lydia Tar. Now in the international world of classical music, she's considered one of the greatest living composer conductors and the first ever female music director. What's fascinating about this film is it's all fiction. You are convinced that this woman really exists because she's connected to famous places, people in events, like she was the understudy for Leonard Bernstein in the New York Field Harmonic, the Berlin Symphony, all fabrication. Lydia Tarr in this movie is about to hit the peak of her career by conducting a recording of Mueller's fifth symphony when all of her dicey behavior in the past and present starts to haunt her all at once. Part of it has to do with the fact that she's a lesbian and she's married. This isn't reviews just a warning.

(00:01:54):

The farther you get into the movie, the more confusing it becomes. I'm telling you right upfront, the plot points never get resolved. Questions go unanswered. However, I don't know that much about classical music. So what was interesting to me was learning the behind the scenes mechanics and the intrigues of that world. Kate Blanchett probably gonna get a nomination or two. It is an acting tour de force. She speaks French and German and English in the film, fluidly morphing from one language to the other, all in the dialogue. It's written by Todd Field who hasn't done a movie in 16 years. He did little children and in the Bedroom, too Dark, but really interesting movies. I basically comment about this one the same as I did Amsterdam. It holds true for both movies. You may not understand everything, but it's a masterclass in acting.

Louise Palanker (00:02:43):

Well, I'm in it for all those languages cuz I get to read some subtitles and then it makes you feel like you're doing some reading. There you go.

(00:02:49):

Yeah. Well, I have watched on Hulu a documentary called, God Forbid Colon, the Sex Scandal that brought down a dynasty. And you have seen this as well, for instance. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Okay, so how do I describe this one? Imagine you are a 20 year old pool boy at the Fountain Blue Hotel in Miami. And an attractive older woman invites you up to her room for sex, which I suppose is sort of par for the Pool Boy course. Now imagine you start getting into it and she says, oh, hey, do you mind if my husband watches? Well, yeah, you do, but you don't mind more than you want the sex you are after all a 20 year old pool boy, the training brochure literally says this job comes with sex. Now imagine the attractive lady enjoys herself immensely, as does her husband, who spends the encounter with his pants down, enjoying himself immensely.

(00:03:39):

They book a series of follow-up visits before you come to understand that the attractive lady is growing increasingly attached and falling in love with you. And if you didn't initially catch her name, it's Becky Falwell and the guy with his pants down in the corner is Jerry Falwell Jr. Jen Carlo Granda is pulled deeper and deeper into the fall. Well, well, they keep him close by lavishing him with travel and luxury. They invest in his real estate dreams, introduce him to important figures and captains of industry. And as he begins to grow up, pull away and get his own girlfriend, they reveal to him that Jerry and Becky have been filming their sexual encounters. They threaten him and put the squeeze on him financially. The pressure ratchets up considerably when Team Trump uses knowledge of the throuple to coerce an endorsement out of Falwell. And his evangelical power pulpit inherited from Jerry Falwell Sr.

(00:04:33):

And centered around the evangelical stronghold of Liberty University. Giancarlo found himself within the crosshairs of not just Jerry Falwell Jr, but also now the president of the United States. His exit strategy was telling the truth, which you will see in this documentary and in his book Off the Deep End, Jerry and Becky Falwell and the Collapse of an Evangelical Dynasty. So for me, the scandal is not in the sexual details because whatever between consenting adults, it's in the manipulation of this young man and the hypocrisy of a couple who forbade any sexual activity outside of marriage at their university while engaging in plenty of it, in endorsing a presidential candidate who did the same and also bragged about abusing women. Your views on this scandal may vary, but I found it to be an important lesson in power dynamics for you young folks at home or in some bigwigs hotel room. Sex with anyone who can hold sway over you, your free will or your future is a bad idea. Be careful in there,

Fritz Coleman (00:05:33):

<laugh>. Good point. I love this cuz you know, I'm a big fan of hypocrisy Exposed and um, and there's another one just like it, you know, the Hillsong Church, which is this big phenomenal church that was started in Australia by a father and very similar to Liberty, was passed off to his son, okay? And now his son runs the whole thing. And then this particular thing is about the, this sort of this rockstar like minister that was the pastor at the New York chapter of this church and how he got into some sexual malfeasance. And it's just hypocrisy and it's fun. It makes you smile. I mean, it doesn't matter what religion you're in, it's the same in all religions, but it's funny,

Louise Palanker (00:06:15):

Right? We, we do all have to be careful. So God forbid is on Hulu. And I'd like to introduce our guests, if

Fritz Coleman (00:06:20):

I may. Sure. Let's get these boys on here.

Louise Palanker (00:06:22):

These are charismatic leaders in their own right, <laugh>, a mediocre time with Tom and Dan is an award-winning podcast in radio show that you can watch live on Twitch. Tom Van and Dan Dennis have been blazing a glorious trail in audio entertainment pulling, radio kicking and screaming into the podcast age. Their fans are legion and loyal. Their exploits are legend and can be located@tomanddan.com To help folks regulate. To your tone, Tom and Dan, I will read a selected excerpt from your website entitled How to Listen Colon

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:06:55):

<laugh>.

Louise Palanker (00:06:57):

It's more than easy to join Tom and Dan and listen to the show live every Friday at 12:00 PM on Twitch. First check to make sure that it is Friday. <laugh>, this can easily be done by using a calendar or by calling a close friend <laugh>. So you call your listeners Scumbags Endearingly, you encourage friends to drink and listen. And it feels like you guys are bringing the tone and tender of broadcast Old School Morning Show Radio to the Land of Audio on Demand. You're on Twitch, you have an app, folks can chat with one another. What all else is going on as you stream live?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:07:30):

Oh man. Well, hey, first of all, yeah, what an intro. I, oh my God, we have never, we have never had two people that we actually, uh, first of all, I have to say that we truly admire the way that you guys deliver your show and how professional and how like Yeah, yeah. It's just, I'm just watching you in awe. I forgot we were a guest. Listening was like, I was like, damn, I'm gonna subscribe to this, but I'm done. Really.

Fritz Coleman (00:07:56):

But I'll tell you, uh, you, you have a, there's a great documentary about you guys on YouTube and you guys are huge. I mean, you have your own day in Orlando, Florida. We're not playing around with a couple of dozen listeners. You, you have thousands of listeners and you do these events like we'll talk about at the Hard Rock, where thousands of people show up and it's an event and you have, um, and, and the thing that Wheezy and I both found is interesting because we're both, and I, I I promise I'll get a question now. Just gimme a second, go out for a

Louise Palanker (00:08:29):

Sandwich, you can pontificate go.

Fritz Coleman (00:08:31):

Uh, but I, I I, we, we were both fascinated by the fact that you guys started in terrestrial radio and made a very successful transition over into podcast. And we should all be as successful as you have been in conquering this new form. It's really amazing all that to say you guys started in terrestrial radio. Uh, terrestrial radio. Talk about your start.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:08:55):

Well, it is funny because I was actually Daniel's intern at radio when, uh, back in 2003. Yeah. This is back in, you know, like in the late nineties and early two thousands, you abused your intern and you gave him some <laugh>, some sort of lacky name, some name to belittle him and to make him feel like the dirt that he is

Louise Palanker (00:09:15):

<laugh>, Hey, you didn't make the rules, you're just playing by them. I

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:09:18):

Get it. And e even though this person's parents are probably spending an upwards of 20 to $25,000 to send them to a, uh, a university, we take these university students and we put them in as an intern at a radio station. Then we belittle them and make them get, I don't know, a ham bagel or Hot sauce or

Louise Palanker (00:09:34):

<laugh>. Wait,

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:09:35):

Wait, wait. Roll Mouse trap. What

Louise Palanker (00:09:36):

Was his, what was his humiliating nickname, please?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:09:39):

It, uh, drunkie the Bear. <laugh>. Yeah. But, but let's not kid ourselves with the name Drunkie the Bear. This guy was more than an intern. Yeah,

Fritz Coleman (00:09:48):

That's character. He

Louise Palanker (00:09:49):

Talk about him. He was, he was a stunt man. He was a stunt man. Oh my

Fritz Coleman (00:09:52):

God.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:09:53):

And that's the thing about Tom is that, um,

Fritz Coleman (00:09:55):

It's amazing you can sit up and re respond to a conversation after the stuff. He's,

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:10:01):

I mean, he can gimme the rundown of injuries he has, but, well, I'll forget my grandkids names, but, uh, right now, good

Louise Palanker (00:10:07):

<laugh>,

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:10:09):

I was, uh, I was a producer for, uh, a big time morning show, the Monsters in the morning on W T K S, real Radio 1 0 4 0.1 in Orlando. And then Tom always wanted to be in radio. And there was really not much of a difference other than I'd been in the business longer and I'm older and smaller. A and we had an advantage in the fact that, uh, and this will lead to our podcast success, but, uh, it was the only talk radio show in town. So there was a huge listener base. And, uh, me and Daniel worked together for 10 years and back in the middle of us working together in oh nine, uh, Daniel, you know, he was the producer of the show, the executive producer, and he, uh, audio engineer, brilliant at editing, audio, everything. You know, he's that side of the business of our business.

(00:10:55):

And he had a studio in his house and one day in 2009, and it was kind of like when podcasting was very at the infancy, like Corolla, Marin. Yeah, Marin Rogan. Mm-hmm. Rogan had just started, Marin was like two years in. Um, let's see. Yeah, the big ones were, um, uh, Jimmy Paro. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Yeah. He was a big one. I'm trying to think of the guys that did it a little bit earlier than Marin. But I had a studio that I would do, uh, parody songs in. Yeah, yeah. And like little, you know, and my own music cuz I was a musician, so I would like, you know, and, and by studio, I mean I had an interface and I had a computer, you know, and then, uh, years of playing, uh, drums cuz I'm a percussionist. I had microphones and cords and cables and guitars and amps.

(00:11:40):

So we just put it all together on a Tuesday and we recorded on a Thursday. Yeah. And then we decided like, Hey, let's just record a podcast and see where it goes just for fun. After we're done with our shifts on Friday, like, uh, let's, let's try to do this. And we, we literally, we were like, we didn't even know have any structure. We're just like, let's turn it on. We did two breaks. It's funny because we Standard radio, dumb dumbs this, we literally, now it's been, I mean, what, uh, 13 years? 13 plus years. And we have the same format with our podcast where it's basically three segments, two breaks, and two and four new songs from people that were allowed to play their music <laugh>. And, uh, and we, we started that in oh nine just as a hobby. And it's funny because a as you guys know, in radio and like, uh, mainstream media, you know, they throw out these numbers and that are gigantic and, and, and there were these huge numbers that were always thrown out.

(00:12:36):

Like you have this many listeners and, and then as social media, uh, and like, they, like the company. And iHeart used to be Clear Channel started getting more into, um, websites and, uh, like promoting like the web. And we went through all that at the time. Like, you know, when we started in oh three and stuff, there was the, they base barely had websites for the radio shows and like, it it was that, you know, we were still using mini disks and things like that. Yeah. Like Daniel, you know, we just started, he just stopped cutting tape. I still know how to cut tape. You guys know how to cut tape?

Louise Palanker (00:13:08):

Oh yeah. I still have some tape around my neck. I can't remember where it

Fritz Coleman (00:13:12):

Goes. You know, um, um, you guys, uh, benefited from having developed your chemistry in terrestrial radio before you came over to the podcast, so you hit the ground running. But my contention has always been, you can't really manufacture chemistry. You guys have great chemistry. It's just this organic thing that has to occur where it's, you know, you can read one another's thoughts, you bounce back and forth, you finish each other's sentences. You can't fake that. I mean, uh, I worked with people on TV and they tried to fake chemistry between anchor people and all that, and it just never worked. But you have that worked out. But I also find interesting your personalities and what drove you to the industry. For instance, Dan, you were short, you still are short to my knowledge, and, and since last we spoke, but short

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:14:01):

Mouth,

Fritz Coleman (00:14:01):

But, but you were bullied. You were bullied as a kid and you, like I did. I I didn't have the benefit of being short. I was tall and got the shit slapped outta me when I was in high school. You got beat up. And in order to protect yourself in circumstances, you used your wits. I so identify with that.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:14:16):

Yeah. You talked your way outta

Fritz Coleman (00:14:18):

Stuff. You were painfully shy and sort of an antisocial kid. And so this is, you conquering one of your great fears, being a personality and being in front of people and all that. So it's really an interesting dynamic between both of you.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:14:32):

Uh, wait, we appreciate that. And yeah, thank you. And also you're, you're right in the fact that working, you know, in, uh, terrestrial radio they do these, it's, it's absurd. It's like, and, and when we used to do the morning show, it was, it was five hours, like, you know, from five hours it was from six to 11. Yeah. And so five hours, five days a week. So when you have that many hours and you fill that much time, and you guys are familiar with like, these huge, gigantic chunks of like morning drive and stuff, like, it's so much. Yeah. And so when you do that Monday through Friday, uh, for, you know, we worked together for 10 years. I think we did, uh, six before we started the podcast. Sure. And then now we're doing, uh, you know, five hours, uh, five days a week and a two hour podcast at the end of the week. Yeah. That many reps will make you better. Like, uh, and Oh, that's interesting. Like, I, I guess that's the one thing I tell everybody. I'm like, even if, like, even if no one's listening, if you wanna start a podcast or start anything, just do like, do it and do the reps because practice going to the motions, uh, that will, will help tremendously.

Louise Palanker (00:15:37):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, I wanted to talk a little bit, uh, for our listeners who are not maybe as familiar with old school radio from the inside out because a lot of people listened to the radio but didn't work in it the way we all did. So, um, for folks who listened to the radio but did not work in radio back in the day when everyone in town picked from a few local stations and listened live a morning show team would wake up in the middle of the night, put on a four hour show, trying desperately to be fun, funny, engaging and entertaining while doing that live, they may get a call from their boss yelling at them because he's been yelled at by his boss or whatever corporate or ego influence was involved. And then the morning guys would have to carry on being funny within that tense and limiting culture. Is that what compelled you to first tip dip your toe in the podcast waters that, that hope of freedom?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:16:25):

Well, I mean, like for us, I mean, are you gonna talk about the, the events? Well, yeah. I, I, you know, we never had any aspirations of turning the podcast into a business. When we started it. It was not like, Hey, we start this, it'll turn into something and then we can do this for a living. The business is just what came and un unfortunately, now we're trying to figure it out. I mean, we have this thing and we're trying to figure it out, but we didn't even think that was possible. No. Because at the time, like we were getting a couple thousand downloads a week. But you know, in perspective wise, we were being told that like, oh, your radio show you're on has hundreds and hundreds of thousands of listeners, hundreds of, it's not millions of listeners. Yeah. And so that's the numbers that they be thrown out.

(00:17:06):

And then we're like, oh, we're only getting two to 5,000 downloads a week. That's nothing. And, and, and now in today's terms, like it's, uh, uh, huge. But so back then we were like, oh, this is not, but what changed is we had one after a year of doing the podcast, and then, like I said, it was just for fun. We decided to like, Hey, let's do a meetup. Yeah. Let's see some of these guys that listen to the show, you know, let, let's go to a local bar and then invite our listeners to come ha have a beer with us. And when we did our first meetup, we had like 150 people show up and it, we drank the entire bar out of beer to the point where they closed the doors and said, Hey, can you do this next week? And we're like, not here

Fritz Coleman (00:17:51):

<laugh>. But that's a great way to learn what your demographic is. You know, get a, get eyes on your audience and see, see that's, that's probably a great idea.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:18:00):

And it also taught us it's accountability, right? That same week we did a radio promotion at a local wing bar. Yeah. And me, a big chain to a big chain. And me and Daniel were there, and crickets, five people showed up, nobody here, you know, it was the promo, the promo tent. They hand out the, the free garbage <laugh>. We even had the cute girls with the calendars. We had the whole nine yards and nobody came. And then we were like, wait a minute. We, we did this pro promo that they had been promoting five people showed up. And then we do our podcast, same people, same town, and 150 people showed up. And then that told us like, whoa, like our listeners for the podcast are way more engaged and way more, uh, interested in our success and wanna support us. They knew we were on our own. And then we thought, we were like, man, there's there's something here, here. Like, they're active. They're, they're, they're busier, you know, they're into it Don,

Fritz Coleman (00:18:52):

That's really interesting.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:18:53):

And, and that told us that the, the type of listener matters and then not necessarily the number that you, you, you throw out there. And we started to realize like, wait a minute, they're not hundreds of thousands of listeners. Because we started looking at our own social media. We're like, and like, and talking about stunts. Like I jumped Grave Digger at the, uh, monster Jam here and he did many times. So I jump over Grave Digger on a scooter, which is like ridiculous. And they're, we put the video on YouTube and it's got 5,000 views. That's a decent amount, but not for people that have millions of listening. Yeah. And I'm like, I don't think we have, I don't think this radio station has hundreds of thousands of listeners. If only five, like, what 5% are not going on YouTube to look at me do this great. I'm

Fritz Coleman (00:19:37):

Like, sales department lion. Yeah.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:19:39):

Well, exactly. Yeah. And we, and we learned that, you know, but I mean, like, you know, in in radio we, it kind of pulled the curtain back a little bit and we realized that all of the web impressions, all of the d uh, you know, the, the, the, uh, arbitrage ratings and stuff like that, all of it is just, it's inflated. It's equations.

Fritz Coleman (00:19:56):

It mirrors not real. Yeah. It's not real. But you guys have monetized your show because you do your own salesmanship. Right. You've learned that rather than having national, uh, sponsors, your, your greatest penetration would be local, uh, retail people. And you, you sell your own spots. And I can't imagine how hard that is to operate your show and then have to go out and sell spots and Glad Hand

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:20:19):

We're finding that out. It's hard, man. Yeah. And luckily after years, like we started just doing it, only me and Daniel, we are the only two people that have built this business. Now we have help after years of building it, but, but not as many as we probably should have, you know. But you, you, you mentioned the sales part. Uh, the greatest thing that, uh, like mainstream media could have ever done for me, like Clear Channel, iHeart, whatever was underpay me why I worked for radio, because I started learning like the only way they I was gonna make money was through live reads and, uh, like promos, right? You get, uh, you know, in radio business you get a $300 for a two hour promo for standing at a gas station or like being at a car lot or whatever. It's like one 50 an hour you lease.

(00:21:03):

It used to be, it's probably higher now or, or you get $20 a live read, like this is some behind the scenes radio stuff. So I realized like, well, if I can go out with the sales with radio salespeople and then sell myself and get them know the sales business, maybe I could just make the money. Cuz you know, I was making, you know, 25 grand a year base salary, but I was able to make another 25 grand and, uh, promos and libraries endorsements. So I would just, just hustling. I would just go to, with every salesperson to every sales meeting and learn the sales part of it. So then when we, when we were forced, and that, that's another interesting story because, uh, the podcast, and we were doing the podcast and the radio show simultaneously for three, four years. And, uh, and it finally got to the point where, uh, some of the personalities we work with or whatever, weren't happy with the fact that we were doing this.

(00:21:53):

And it was getting more popular. They were, we were selling t-shirts and stuff, so they, we were blowing merch outta my garage. We were selling hat and t-shirts and st we had stickers everywhere and magnets. And that's when we were kind of like really getting excited about the promotion part of it. We were like, Hey, this building, uh, that's when, uh, you know, clear channel was like, basically someone from our show that we were on tried to sabotage us and like say that, uh, us cursing was gonna cause the whole station a problem. And, and that was a big thing. Yeah. Because they, they were trying to kind of, uh, kind of weave together the illusion that our clients, current clients of the radio station were so dumb. Which is very insulting to your clients to say that you're so stupid that you think that, uh, audio from our podcast is us cursing on the radio or potential clients or new clients Yeah. That they were gonna hear us cursing. Yeah. Because you know how the business is like other, uh, you know, your opposition and other radio stations will find audio and send it to FCC to try to get you fine. Oh, like a political

Fritz Coleman (00:22:56):

Campaign? Yeah. Yeah. <laugh>. But, but what I loved about in learning about your sales technique there was that you swear a lot in your commercials. But the thing is, that's what makes the memorable. And many times, and you, somebody was describing it in the documentary that uh, sometimes you'll do a spot and you are a little blue in this commercial. And it turned out that it had more impressions and the, uh, the listeners liked it even more. And so the, the sponsor comes back and said, please swear more in our commercial because it makes an impression.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:23:30):

Yeah. That's actually our realtor. He, he is still cl still a client, still with us. And he just preferred us to be us instead of being the corporate version of us is to Yeah. He, he just basically told us and then we realized like, Hey, uh, just talk to your, your audience. Do make the commercials funny, screw up whatever, do it unconventional, be real. Just be authentic. And um, and then that will resonate more and people will remember it more. And it turned out to be the case. And it's funny because we started doing this so much that sometimes we go opposite and do straight ones because it's like, uh, too predictable. We gotta give himself a difference. So sometimes we're like all business. Yeah, yeah.

Louise Palanker (00:24:09):

But explain, talk about this a little bit because I, I just think it's an interesting dynamic that you have these kind of like bloated, if you will, ships of industry who, like the music industry and the radio industry that didn't really wanna begin steering, uh, like make a course correction like, you know, 15 years ago when it was clear, but it take, but you know, they were holding onto their jobs until retirement or what have you. But like to see that streaming was the future. How many guys like you have jumped off and started your own thing? Because I don't think it's that common.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:24:42):

It, it, it's so hard. Like a lot of people, we were lucky timing wise and Yeah, we really were. And it's kind of, we were kind of lucky that they forced us out at the time they did because, um, like it's not like they're, it's not like podcasts are getting more popular now. I mean, they are, but there's too many of them. There's so many. So at the time when we were basically forced out and forced to make this a business, you know, we're talking about, uh, 10 years ago, 2012 when Daniel left. Another thing that is a dirty little secret in radio is they stagger your contracts so that you have no power. You can't leave together. Yeah. You can't leave together. If

Fritz Coleman (00:25:17):

My contract's so interesting

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:25:19):

Isn't integrate, if my contract's up in 2012 and Tom's contract's up in 2013, then we can't leave at the same time because he won't be able to eat for a year. Yeah. We, so we had to like, that's what what we had to do. So in an effort to, to uh, to like, we also didn't wanna burn any bridges cuz it was like, you know, no, we, we didn't know anybody who started a podcast business and like we knew that like Corolla and Mar Marin and, uh, Rob. Yeah. We're not them. Yeah. But they're, you know, uh, a thousand times bigger than us. So we were like a little hesitant, but we knew we had to give it a try, you know? Uh, also we were just about to have kids at the time and it was a rough, it was a rough deal. Yeah. I had just bought a house. I mean, and, but, but I was, I, if I can speak for me, at the, at the end of my deal, I was so dissatisfied with radio. I didn't like the way it was going. I didn't like the way I was treated. And then I was looking at my new deal and of course they wanted to link, you know, to, to kind of ink me for three more years. And I'm like, man, I don't think, I don't think I can do this. Yeah.

Louise Palanker (00:26:21):

For the same salary wife said. So in the documentary she's like, yeah, I'm, he's not permitted to do this cuz I have to live with him and it's not healthy.

Fritz Coleman (00:26:28):

Yeah. And I wanna, I I wanna talk about that if you don't mind. Yeah. Please. Tom's wife in the documentary. And I thought the part where you sort of, uh, exposed the audience to your family dynamic was really touching and very cool cuz it's so antithetical to the way you guys on the air, uh, the way you guys are on the air. But I think it was Tom's wife that said, having children really changed him and made him grow up a little bit. So tell me what she was talking about and if you agree with what she said, Tom.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:26:57):

Well, uh, it has, and obviously I think it does too, everybody. Yeah. Uh, well, you know, some people, no doesn't <laugh>, you go out to buy a pack of cigarettes, you never come back. But, uh, <laugh> the, uh, I I I think it was just, you know, um, you know, when I started in the entertainment business, I was like, I was doing the stunts and it was like, you know, uh, like the party and, and I always thought, I was like, well this isn't gonna last that long. Right? Like, uh, but as you get older, and then when, uh, my wife got pregnant, it really did hit home like, man, well I can't just be willy-nilly. Like, you know, every year could be different. Like, well I'll just go with the flow. And then it was like, I have to build something Yeah. To plan something. And also, it scared me too because radio, we, and me and Daniel have always talked about this, like, you don't even know when your last day of work is. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, there's like, every day you do a show, you could walk out of that studio and they're waiting for you to fire you because yeah,

Fritz Coleman (00:27:56):

We're going on Spanish sports starting tomorrow. <laugh> thanks for your service. We're zero

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:28:00):

Equity. You know, you have built characters and ideas and a persona and you have people that, that that count on you every morning. Right. And they love you, but if the station isn't succeeding that none of that matters. And you have a non-compete, so you can't even get a job in the same, uh, you know, area that people know you. So you can't even say goodbye. At least for me, uh, you know, they didn't bank on social media being as popular. And you know, social media has a big a, a big part of why people found me cuz I left and they did everything they could, you know, to never speak. They told I was still on the show, uh, I had to work there for another year, but they were like, don't talk about Daniel. Yeah. He never worked here, he didn't exist. This is what radio does. Like when someone, when they fire someone or they, they, they won't sign the contract, force him out or whatever. Like in Daniel's case, then they think that, alright, if we don't talk about 'em, then the listeners will forget and then they won't know. But Daniel just went on social media and it's like, Hey, I'm doing a podcast now. Come over here. And then everybody's like, all right. You know, and

Fritz Coleman (00:28:56):

You know, we, we had that same circumstance just play out here in Los Angeles where we had a, a female TV anchor that worked on one of our stations and she was very popular and she got fired and they told her co-anchor who happened to be a very close friend of hers, don't mention anything about it, he violated it and went on the air and said, you people didn't even allow her the opportunity to say goodbye to our listeners. It was awful. You know, you, you can't do that. So they fired him that, that following Monday they fired the guy. So she lost her job, he lost his job cuz he went on the air, Andy. And he completely, um, uh, went against what the corporate policy was and, and said, you should let her say goodbye. And now then neither of em on

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:29:36):

Their podcast, they should start

Louise Palanker (00:29:38):

<laugh>. But it's, it's disrespectful to listeners to No, it it really is to just sort of, you know, assume that they're so mindless that they would just, oh, new reality, I will adjust accordingly. Like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're humans. It, it just, I think that's really sad that you would think that people would just forget a person. Yeah. When you love a show, you know, you're still kind of mourning the cancellation of the monsters or whatever, you know, like 40 years later, why did they take that show off? I love that. I mean, you love it forever if you love it.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:30:08):

Yeah. It was, it was a weird time and I never, I never got to say goodbye. They did something where you kind of gotta say like a weird Well, I had to lie because I was, I was terrified because when I waited out my whole year, and then I knew, I was like, well, we're gonna make a run at this podcast business. Yeah. But I don't want clear channel finding out that because I, we were terrified that they were, they said, they alluded that they would sue us. Well, the non-com so

Fritz Coleman (00:30:32):

Is that part of the non-compete clause is a podcast included in that

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:30:36):

They, it's muddy and we talked to lawyers and they were like, this is never, there's no precedent to this. It wasn't written that way. They're like, technically they say like, yeah, you, you but the internet, like, where is the server? Like we started looking at the things like, well technically our servers are out of Orlando or Atlanta. I moved our server to Atlanta so we weren't broadcasting in Orlando

Louise Palanker (00:30:57):

<laugh>. Wow. It's all new law. Right. And it's like also, you know, what about ownership of bits or concepts or whatev intellectual property and that kind of thing. Yeah.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:31:07):

Yeah. They tried to lock ev all of my bits, all my dumb characters. And so, so we, we, it's interesting because still to this day, I don't know of a case where some per like, uh, like a, a popular radio show or a radio personality left to do a podcast and they tried to come after 'em for a non-compete because it legally, I think it's super tough because it's all written for terrestrial radio. Right. And then when you start talking about the internet, it's like, okay, well where is it being broadcast to and from? It's the whole world. It's instantly accessed by the entire world as soon as you put it on the internet. So is that non-compete? How can, like you could be broadcasting from Russia anywhere, and technically you could hear us in Orlando. So it's like, is that non-compete there? Actually we are broadcasting from Russia right now,

Fritz Coleman (00:31:51):

<laugh>. And it turns out that you were competing with them and you compete and beat them. So the third act of this movie is you beat 'em at their own game, which is kind of cool.

Louise Palanker (00:31:59):

And then they welcome you back, you know, on your own terms, right? With your, the corporate.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:32:03):

Yeah. We're still people who, couple people welcome us.

Louise Palanker (00:32:06):

Okay. Okay.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:32:07):

We do broadcast our clean, uh, podcasts, our corporate time with Tom and Dan that's broadcast on the radio. Uh, although it has more actual podcast listeners and most of our listeners, uh, listen to podcasts. But we play, like me and Daniel are, are never about burning bridges. And we want to, uh, you know, for business wise it's, well, he's not, I burn him too. I'm more the

Louise Palanker (00:32:29):

Torch. I'm

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:32:30):

A little emotional bridge burner. And then he tells me to burn bridges and I put out the fires <laugh>.

Louise Palanker (00:32:37):

But,

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:32:37):

But it is interesting, what we found now, as, you know, in 2022, there is just so much content that now it's hard because it's, it's hard like navigating a world where everybody's attention is being, uh, taken by their phone, by social media, by TikTok videos, by Instagram videos, by my reels 10 million podcast. Every single celebrity has a podcast. I didn't foresee people doing podcasts for no financial reasons. Like, uh, you know, celebrities are doing podcast content and they're not for no payment or any, like I thought bored

Fritz Coleman (00:33:14):

Family project.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:33:15):

Yep. So it, it's like now navigating a new world where there's infinity content out there, it's now it's like, uh, it's about keeping and curating our own listener base and ma and just keeping that as strong as possible. And it's like, uh, it's, it is different. And people that, we have plenty of old radio friends that have left radio or been fired and started their own podcasts and they've, they've like, well, it seems a lot easier for you guys. And I'm like, well, doing it now, it's a different time. Doing it now is different than 10 years ago. It is because you, there's just a lot more, like even 10 years ago or when we started the podcast in oh nine, they were, people were like, pod Nest, what is that? Yeah. They didn't even know what it was. Yeah. People didn't know what it was. And now, you know, now that we've been doing it for 12, 13 years and there are people that I know that are famous that are starting podcasts now, you know, well, radio famous, I'll say. And I feel for them. Cause it's really, really hard to, it

Fritz Coleman (00:34:11):

It is. And they don't realize how much work it is. It's a lot of work, especially if you don't have a staff of producers helping you. And

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:34:17):

We wear so many hats. You know, we do have a producer, Samantha, and she's awesome. We do have a social media guy, we have a merch guy. Um, that's really about it. Whereas about normal days we run, um, we're pushing what, five to seven shows outta here a week and we we're a three person team and we're broadcasting an upwards to 25 to 40 hours a week. Yeah.

Fritz Coleman (00:34:40):

I do all this and, and you guys diversify. You, you were talking about a corporate time, which is the clean version of your show, which is on radio. Right. You also do soccer and you also do what? The

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:34:49):

Soccer. The soccer. Oh, sorry. I'll, I'll let you finish. Sorry.

Fritz Coleman (00:34:52):

And then I, I could be wrong about this, but also you have the Gentleman's Guide to Manliness, which sounds awesome. <laugh>, what's that all about? Yeah, that,

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:34:58):

That was good. Yeah. We did that for a while. The soccer show is funny. We did that show to kind of subs like, uh, subsidize Daniel's salary for a little while with the local soccer team while I was waiting on my contract. Yeah. We have an MLS franchise, the Orlando, Orlando City Lions, and we actually, man, we were Right commercials form and we do advertising campaigns. We helped launch the 2015 bid of m l s here in Orlando. We would do whatever it took to get money, whatever it took to get the podcast moving, we would do it. Yeah.

Louise Palanker (00:35:30):

Can you do kind of like, uh, merchandise or just sort of like exchanges where since you guys are a lifestyle and a culture that if you guys like it, then people who like you will like it?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:35:42):

I think so. Yeah. Most of our listeners are like us. Yeah. And that's what we've realized since our content is not about any particular topic. Uh, but we do like talk about general, uh, pop culture and stuff going on in society. But most of the time, like you mentioned the documentary, uh, we talk about our own personal lives and we all our, we talk about our own lives. Like we tell

Fritz Coleman (00:36:04):

Embarrassing. That's what was refreshing about it.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:36:05):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I mean, we tell honest stuff about raising our kids and we are also very blue. But it, it's funny because we, we have this reputation, our listeners have this reputation is like party animals and stuff. Like I'm married to the, like I've never had any other girlfriend besides my wife. Like I don't tell 'em that <laugh>, I, I, I met, I met my wife in high school and I've, you know, been married to her Yeah. Uh, ever since. And then it's like, uh, and my wife is the biggest nerve 4.0, you know, doesn't drink, doesn't do nothing. Never tried drugs and are alive. They

Fritz Coleman (00:36:39):

Chewing the guardrails. Man. That's good. You're you're better off.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:36:42):

Yeah. I mean, but yeah, he, uh, he, it's, it's, but because of our, because of our jokes and our, uh, you know, our blue comedy people like, oh, these guys are, uh, you know, uh, uh, they're crazy wild, uh, party animals, but we overshare about things that I think a lot of people can identify with. Like, I, I would say that Tom overs shares about, uh, certain aspects of his life and his relationship with his wife that no one would ever talk about. About like, uh, let's say your lack of emotion or your wife wanting you to be more of a certain thing. And me, I overshare about my anxiety and I'm overly emotional. Right. And I'm, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like the girl of the relationship with my wife and my wife's a lot more like Tom. And it's, we overshare these things and most of the time we find out that our listeners are either a Tom or a Dan or a combo.

Fritz Coleman (00:37:27):

Oh, they love it. That's very endearing. That's what made Howard CERN so famous. I think he was

Louise Palanker (00:37:32):

The vulnerability.

Fritz Coleman (00:37:32):

Yeah. He was very, I mean, regardless of how brazen he was, he, he would share about his medical stuff and all kinds of things. And I think people connected

Louise Palanker (00:37:41):

To that. And I also think that since men maybe with their friendship with their male friendships have a hard time opening up about some of the stuff that matters the most, you know, you guys talking about it opens that door to where okay, yeah, no, it's, it's super fine to admit that, you know, you're, you're a little bit weirded out by spiders or whatever that is that would make you, you know, not so heman, you know, but you guys make it. Okay. Fear

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:38:07):

Of flying that I, we used to talk about all the time. It's, it's always, you know, I I don't like flying. I had a bad experience. And yeah, we talk about that, but then I get a, an onslaught of emails from people that have the same fear. And I think we do that a lot. It's great. And what's in, what's interesting is that we've found like, just like society and social media is, uh, fractured off. Like we've got now these subgroups of our listeners, you know, like we call 'em BDMs, but uh, the, the, the subgroups now we have an anxiety group. Uh, we've got a parenting group, we have a gardening, gambling outdoors. And there's all these, like, we're all with hundreds of people in each group. Our listeners have all like, found like-minded things and then we, we, like as a whole, they all listen to the show, but they're all into these small little genres. Mean crazy thing. Swingers board games, uh, you know, playing cards. I mean, it's just, so

Louise Palanker (00:38:57):

Wait, so where are these chat rooms? Is it when you, when you're on Twitch and like, how does it work? So you're on Twitch, you have an app, you know, folks can chat with one another

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:39:06):

Facebook. Yeah, like Facebook, we, Facebook mostly, we, we, we started a, uh, a members only, uh, BDM group, uh, Facebook group years ago. And it was kind of on the fly like, Hey, we should put all our, like, if you're a paying member. Cause no, it was so casual that that was our first, uh, business was because be when we were under contract, we couldn't get any advertisers. Cuz they'll definitely, as you guys know, if you mess with their money and their advertisers, oh they'll man, they will sue you out of existence. They'll get you good. We, we also know that they have a infinite amount of money and lawyers that we, they will never have a chance. But, so we stayed away from advertisers, but we started a subscription service where you get an extra show and you become like a member of, uh, it was 2 95 a month.

(00:39:53):

And uh, actually we built it while we were working for the, the radio station and we just held onto it. Yeah. And when, when Daniel left, he, we pulled the, the, the, the trigger and then we were like, Hey, you wanna support Daniel? And now he left like, subscribe to our show. Yeah. And then, and that was the single greatest thing we ever did was that we put one tweet out there saying, Hey, if you were looking for Dan, well you, you can help him by supporting this, uh, this new subscriber base. It's an extra show you get an extra show you. And we made it cheap. Yeah. You get 2 95, you get to part of a community. And then we rolled in older shows, we Mm. Yeah. And, and then so, uh, we started a Facebook group with just those members. And then throughout the years we realized like tho those members and then we started the smaller g groups of the interests. You know, like, well they'd write us and say like, Hey, you know, I think I got like 50 or 60 guys that want start like a Mitsubishi Eclipse group <laugh>. And it's like, okay, pardon Mitsubishi Eclipse Group.

Fritz Coleman (00:40:49):

I'll tell you what, it's mind blowing how devoted your fans are. I mean, there are guys out there with Tom and Dan tattoos. Oh yeah. It's unbelievable.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:40:58):

And and that's where we realized like where all the, and we tell our listeners all the time, like, um, and that's what, uh, Dom founds us about, uh, like, uh, mainstream big corporate media is that they, like, I remember some ahead, uh, like, you know, general manager one time, um, uh, she was talking about like, uh, the, you know, the people that text and the texting service or the callers or whatever the emails you get, that's only a small percentage of your audience. You got this huge audience that's less than 1%. Yeah, that's less than 1%. You got this huge, but I was always like, yeah, but, but those are the people that care. Those are the people that care enough to email you to use your sponsors. They're using their thumbs to talk to you. What's wrong with you? Like, those people are worth a hundred listeners who don't use, like, you don't call in or participate.

(00:41:45):

You know what I'm saying? Good point. So we, we realized a long time ago, like the people that are paying 10 90 or 2 95 a month, those are the only listeners that matter cuz those are the people that are buying or, you know, using our sponsors, they're here and buying our shirts and going to the events. So we just started catering straight to them and telling them like, Hey, you guys are our boss. We don't work for a company anymore, so we'll listen to you. So tell us what you want and we'll do it. And like, every one of you guys matter. You know, like even even though it's only thousands of you, like you guys are our business and Fritz and Louise, you guys will, uh, like this because, uh, he started doing something. I'm gonna pay him a massive compliment. He started doing something that would make both of our fathers super duper proud.

(00:42:28):

He just went back to old school, tried and true really good, honest sales techniques. And you just said, we have to have a, a level of accountability for any time we sell. When we did start, started selling commercials, we would do, you know, ways for our clients to let us know that one of our listeners came to the door. Something as simple as like leaving a Tom and Dan, a box of Tom and Dan Coozies at like, let's say a store. And then that way that he told our listeners, Hey, go get a koi get, and then they, they would support it. They like, I'll go get a koi. And then the, the advertiser, the, the store would be like, man, we had, uh, a hundred people this bump coming to get acui mean's Same stuff my dad did in like the fifties, sixties and seventies to sell stuff. I mean, this is not rocket science, it's just accountability and it's face

Louise Palanker (00:43:13):

To face. It's a good job. It's face to face. And it's also, it kind of like measures sort of, uh, how, how we brand ourselves in a kind of a way. So when we were kids growing up, you'd start to identify yourself around the music that you liked, and then you'd put the posters on your wall. And that was kind of your way of saying, I'm this person. I like Tom Petty, and there he is, and that's ownership. And so you kind of offer that and not only do you offer that, that club membership of of self-identity, that I feel like I'm a member of this community, but also you, you give, you're, you're making the best use of technology by allowing people to connect with each other. And I'm wondering what kind of stories you hear about people coming up and say, Hey, you know, we met through you guys and tell us some of those stories.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:43:58):

Oh, we've got people, uh, they met at our, we, because we used to do Tom and Dan Cruises and well, we have tons of people married. Oh yeah. We have tons of people married, we've had tons of people, um, like get engaged on our cruises. I mean more at events like we'd bring up, up on stage and like they met at a Tom and End event. We can't even count 'em. Got married and then now come to events. Like we're doing a big, uh, free beer fest and, uh, and sofa races, uh, coming up in, uh, next weekend, sofa races, <laugh> Man local. Tell me how that works. Oh, the Sanford Florida sofa races are the greatest redneck hillbilly <laugh>. I mean, oh my God, man, we should just fly you guys here. Oh, for sure. Yes. Oh, for sure. Y'all, you would love it. But yeah.

(00:44:40):

But yeah, they show up with kids. They have, and they met at an event. Uh, they, they, we've been doing this a while and now they have kids and then they're, so it's like, uh, you know, we really are lucky that, uh, the community of listeners that we have are so good. They are. And, and, but like we, we've talked about this before. They're like us because all we talk about is our own lives. So it makes sense that they're like-minded. So it makes sense that we like our listeners because they're us. You know, <laugh>, I love that.

Fritz Coleman (00:45:11):

I I Tom, I, I gotta talk about you're a self-described adrenaline junkie and I mean, as drunkie the bear and otherwise you have done some jackass level stunts. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I mean, I, it's ama you, I think you said in the documentary you've had 15 concussions or something like that. Talk about some, talk about some of the most hilarious stunts or dangerous stunts you've ever done. And these are all at your live events, like at the Hard Rock or wherever, right?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:45:40):

Yeah. I mean, you've had a lot of dangerous stunts. I would do, uh, like, uh, the halftime show at the lo at the Monster Jam, the Monster Truck Show, and I think the most dangerous one I did was, uh, I, I told the, you know it, I always laugh about this too because I, I'm still confused how like they let me do these things because a massive corporation. Yeah, yeah. Like this, like Live Nation owns, uh, the monster jam billion dollar company and then iHeart so big now that they run Monster Jam as a season and they come through town twice. Wow. I was a part-time employee and I somehow they trusted me enough. I they, I told them like, I want to jump over a monster truck on a dirt bike. And like, I barely know how to ride dirt bikes in the way.

(00:46:28):

He's pretty good. But it's not like I uh, Travis, you're not a pro runner. No, no, no. Like in, in fact, the day I dreamt over two monster trucks, I had never even rode a fourt stroke dirt pike before. It was always like, I had an old Rusty two-stroke dirt pike. So the first day I borrowed it from some client, some power sports sort, man, you bought some borrowed, some like $17,000 brand new forst stroke. The, they showed up the day of I, the first time I even practiced riding, it was the day I was gonna jump the two monster trucks. And I remember the night like a halftime came and there's 70,000 people. I'm in a bear suit and I'm revving up the, the four stroke dirt pike. But forgetting, I'm thinking it's a two stroke and like a two stroke, you have to keep revving it to keep it going.

(00:47:09):

The four stroke, I looked down and it was over a heating, like, uh, the, uh, water was coming out of, uh, uh, the radiator and stuff. I was like, I was like, oh, this thing is gonna stall. And then I, I went for it. You just went for it. I no practice. And like I, I made it over, uh, the two monster Monster trucks and if I would've like Grave Digger was actually parked on top of the landing ramp. And I remember thinking it was like an elevated kind of a deal. I remember thinking if I, you know, I'm jumping like 50 feet. If I go through Grave Digger, it's just a series of like welded metal. Oh. It's just, it's just, it's pipe, it's just big steel pipe. Right. Or aluminum pipe or something. I'm, I'm like, I'm not, I can par like easily die or paralyze myself.

(00:47:54):

And, and with the funny part, he's wearing an old helmet that white helmet used to wear. That thing was so old it didn't have any concussive properties left in it. <laugh>. And so, and like, and then like, uh, you know, all these radio and that's a, that's the thing like, uh, when, you know, as you guys know back, like in, we call it nineties radio, but it was like the stunt boy aspect. That's how he started like my career in radio being an intern. Yeah. And doing the stunt aspect and wearing the bear suit. But, uh, I got to do all these cool things, but man, like the, there was a lot of 'em that, uh, you know, I've got, uh, separated shoulder, like now I'm paying for like, little bit. Uh, my, my left shoulder. I, uh, I had to get surgery and now it's like, it, it hurt real bad. I went to the doctor. He is like, that's how you are now <laugh>. Like, it's really loud. It'll never, he's like, you'll have to deal with this forever, can you,

Louise Palanker (00:48:44):

Uh, misaligned?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:48:46):

Yeah. You can hear it on the microphones. Like, it's so cracks. If he gets it the right way, you can hear it.

Fritz Coleman (00:48:52):

Do you have to sign a waiver like with Live Nation when you're

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:48:55):

Doing this? Cool. It's, it's funny because I would sign something, but if now that I think back of it, like if I would've, uh, like paralyzed myself with like, it, like my wife and my family would've, there's nothing. Nothing. No. I mean, because someone would come in and be like, what? You let this guy jump, uh, over Monster? Like, he has no training. He's never ridden a four stroke dirt bike before. He's a part-time employee. He doesn't even, not even shirt bike. Like, yeah. It, it was insane. And it's embarrassing to be, uh, it's embarrassing to not be able to walk, but still be wearing the bear suit in the wheelchair. Uh, I'm glad I went through that experience just for the stories, but, uh, I don't think it'll ever be done again. Uh, I don't think they'll ever let, uh, radio intern do insanely dangerous stunts, uh, for billion dollar corporations

Fritz Coleman (00:49:44):

In yet. Does your wife, um, reject the idea of, you know, kicking your life in your hands every time you do that stuff?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:49:50):

I think she liked it, dude. Well, uh, we were younger. I mean, now, uh, I think it kind of like my hero. I think she gotta look like, you know, <laugh>. Yeah. You know, as you guys know, uh, I had a different mentality in my twenties than I do now in my forties. Yeah. So, uh, like, uh, there's no, no more of that. Uh, the, you know, the, the most dangerous thing I do is probably eat red meat too much or have one too many beers, you know, like a Yeah. Alcohol. Yeah. It's, uh, no, with kids it changes everything, you know?

Louise Palanker (00:50:20):

So what is, what is the, the future potential for new models of programming and advertising and, uh, revenue streams when you can have these 360 relationships with everybody?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:50:33):

That's a, we're trying to figure that out. Yeah. That's a good question because I, I do think that there's some standard for a lot of companies that they should, they should have a, uh, subscription model. Um, I think that's very important. Some way to subscribe. We changed ours to a sliding scale a while back. We call, we call it a love meter. So now you can, uh, you can subscribe for a dollar 95 or 10 95. Yeah. There's sort of a weird honor system in there, uh, in that if you really like the show, we'd pr you know, we're not really giving you anymore. We're just asking you to use your own honor system in your heart to maybe give us a little more. Cuz you use us a lot and everybody's financial situation is different. Correct. So some people pay 10 95, some people pay 1 95, but the mean rose by double. Yeah. So, so there's, uh, there's a benefit in having a sliding scale subscription system. We, I at least tell people that

Fritz Coleman (00:51:26):

It's time empowering to the audience too. That's kind of cool. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it means you trust the audience and you're appealing to their good nature.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:51:32):

It's scary too though, Fritz, because what we, you know, when, when we went, when we added the 10 95 and all the other subsequent subsequential, uh, uh, you know, additions that people could check also, we added the 1 95 so we could have people that were quite possibly paying 2 95 go down a tier. Oh, everybody could have. We had a couple people do that. But to be quite honest, just because going on what Tom was saying earlier, you know, with the listeners being us, I, I think we bet correct, and we kind of knew that they wouldn't do that, that, that they'd probably opt in to pay more. And then there's the marketing of it, which is traditional commercials. Uh, we luck, we lucked out in the fact we talked to a lot of other national podcasts out there that have more listeners than us, but they're so spread apart, like, like Yeah.

(00:52:14):

They're spread across the entire country that there's no real one pocket. Like we were lucky in the fact that we, since we did terrestrial radio in this, in Orlando Yeah. And this market for so long, we're southeast guys that, uh, the majority, I would say 80% of our listeners are in Florida and then in central Florida. Yeah. So we are able to have a lot of local advertising. So essentially we're running our business like a local radio station where, uh, uh, you know, 90% of our advertisers are local. So that is a benefit, like, uh, as, uh, compared to other people that have a national audience and they can only do national advertisers. Yeah. And we can act really, really fast because, you know, it doesn't, doesn't take long for us to cut a commercial, put you on the air and you can see results. Like same day

Fritz Coleman (00:52:59):

People. What, what you guys have done really is a great template for people that want to grow a podcast. Whereas you, you, you worked together in terrestrial radio, you developed your chemistry, you developed a fan base. And so when you switched to podcasting, it wasn't like you're starting from ground zero and nobody knows who you are, and you have to kind of carve your audience out of the, the small podcasting universe. You probably drew your terrestrial radio fans over to podcasting who might not otherwise have come to podcasting. So the way you did it was brilliant. I I mean, it really was not everybody's gonna have the benefit of being able to be on a terrestrial radio for four or five years to figure out what they're doing.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:53:41):

And we hear that when we win awards. Other podcasts say that. Yeah. But no, but I will, I I do tell em the podcast, like, you can build your audience and I, I try to tell them like, nowadays, you gotta go for something more specific. Like, we kind of have a old school, uh, like talk radio show Yeah. Where it's just guys messing around, you know, talking about, it's a little too broad. Right. Everything like, uh, now it seems like you gotta pick, uh, maybe a specific subject and get into there and get into that community. But like hamsters, if you did a hamsters podcast, nobody's doing that, but Right, right. <laugh>, I, I do tell other smaller podcasts, I'm like, man, like okay bars, like if a local bar restaurant, I'm like, if you have, I tell this all the time, like, if you have a couple hundred listeners only to your podcast, you can make money off of that. Yeah. Because if can you get 20 people in a bar Yeah. If 20 people will, will meet you for a beer or a bar like the, the, that bar paid the radio station, uh, $2,000 to get the same result. And if they pay you $500.

Fritz Coleman (00:54:43):

Exactly. Exactly.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:54:44):

You know, and then, and it is just about the grind. I'm like, well, how, you know, maybe you're not making, uh, you know, $300,000 a year, but can you make 60 grand a year? Yeah. I, I can be your own boss and set your own schedule. And I, I, I am convinced you can make 60 grand a year off a thousand listeners Yeah. Off your podcast. Is it, it it does help if they're local, but if you get a local thousand listeners, or would you agree? It's not, which is not like totally insane. Right. I think it's a achievable, doable. Yeah. And, uh, and you can make a good living just off that. And, uh, and really, um, it, you know, you, it's not like the numbers in the past where you need thousands and tens of thousands. It's like, but, and then it turns out, can you get eight, 800? Yeah. But also those numbers were fake. Remember, if you're you

Fritz Coleman (00:55:27):

Yeah. Right. Go back. I should know the answer to this question, Weezy, but I don't, are there companies that you could hire to shop your podcast to retail people in your area? I mean, like, you know, they used to have media, media companies that would do that for a television station. Do they have that for podcasting?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:55:47):

You know, I'm sure they do. I mean, I, I, you know, earlier on we got hit up by everybody. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, what they do have is pod, like you guys know, is like the podcast network. Yeah. Uh, business has exploded because a lot of people though, we, we are also lucky in the fact that I, uh, really enjoyed the business aspect. And then Daniel could give, uh, two shits about the business. I really, I don't like it. And he likes the engineering aspect and then, uh, the sound and, uh, like making the show look good cameras and that stuff. Yeah. And, and so that helps that we both stay in our lanes and, and work together. But, uh, there, the, the podcast networks, uh, basically they promise like, Hey, join our network and then we'll give you commercials instead of going out and get your own.

(00:56:31):

But the problem is they undercut. Like they'll give you a smaller percentage of the cut. They'll do like CPM model. Yeah. And then it's like they're paying you, you know, like $7 per thousand download. And for a real small podcast, you're like, well, you're giving me a $7 thousand, I only have a thousand dollars. And I don't think that's fair. If I could talk about the $7 for a second <laugh>, it's not fair. If you're a new podcaster and you're really excited about this and certainly younger than we are, and you're not as bitter as we are <laugh>, and you're just starting out, I mean, imagine how discouraging it would be if you really did have a good show. Let's say you did have a thousand listeners locally and you didn't know you could live off of that, but you're getting these, these bigger companies coming to you and saying, yeah, I'll give you seven bucks.

(00:57:13):

That'd be so discouraging. And it would like, it would kill you. You wouldn't want to ever do it. But like a local air condition company or a local plumber or whatever, those thousand people that you have, if they Oh my God. Like buy a new AC or like that Yeah. Five acs and that guy's locked in for life. Seriously, that represents like a, the tens of thousands dollars of business. And so you do have a, uh, like, you know, advertising revenue potential greater than a lot of people realize. Yeah. Uh, especially with the podcast, because your listeners are so engaged. Like that thousand listeners that you have on your podcast is probably equivalent to, you know, 20,000 radio listeners if they're passive. That's very interest. Interesting. Yeah. Like podcasting tell us is like concentrate. Yeah. Right. You know, it's, it's, you know, everybody's a little more plugged in. And let's think about that from design, you know, like, you have to go to the phone, you have to find the podcast, you gotta, you know, oh, there it is. I gotta subscribe. I gotta hit play. You listen to the whole thing. It's not, you're not in and outta your car. Like, radio's very passive and podcasts are very, like, you push pause and you come back to it.

Louise Palanker (00:58:18):

Right. It's very, it's very purposeful. And if, especially if you're, if you're in, you know, you want to know like, oh, I didn't miss any of this. Cuz they're gonna refer back to it and I'm gonna have to say, oh, I don't know what they're talking about cuz I didn't finish that episode. You wanna stay, you want to keep up. You know. And so do you guys talk about local color, local news, or anything that's going on regionally?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (00:58:41):

Well, well we, we do now more than we used to because what we saw happening was like, you know, there was a time where we were like top 15 podcasts in the country. Like we were, uh, we were hitting like, uh, iTunes, uh, you know, number. I think we hit hit 11 11 1 time and like, uh, pod uh, comedy podcast category, which was huge. Where like, where the Rogans stuff in, I mean, to like do that now, you'd have to be like, my God, God, you have to, we'll never gimme, get close down, get Dave Chappelle to get away. <laugh>. Yeah. But, um, so, so there was a time where, uh, we were getting these huge downloads, but that was, that was when there was less competition or less podcasts out there. Um, and then so, and so now it's definitely changed where, uh, you know, we saw that, okay, we're not gonna be, uh, as popular nationwide with so many people doing this, so we're gonna, like, it is kind like reverting back to, all right, what, what do we have that they don't? Well, we could talk about local Orlando that, uh, you know. Right. Uh, mark Marin's not talking about. So, but our listeners here in Orlando will appreciate that. And it's kinda like podcasting is now reverting back to local radio. Yes.

Fritz Coleman (00:59:57):

You took the words right outta my mouth, because that's how terrestrial radio is surviving. Used to get like tens and twelves in the numbers. Now you get three or four, but if you carve out a solid four, that's a huge number for your market and just stay in your lane type thing.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:00:11):

Yeah. Yeah. We talk about our lives mostly, but yeah. If there's something in the city that needs, uh, or a client has something, yeah. We'll talk about it for sure. And, and we do a lot of local events and stuff. So we've, we've kind of, uh, gotten a lot more local and we realize that that's our strength and the fact that, uh, you know, why try to be as broad as possible when we need to just keep our listeners that are here engaged. It's like growing from the, growing from local out. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> is what you hope to do instead of what we used to do is just cast the net all over and try to Yeah, yeah. And try to be the biggest thing in the world. It's Yeah. You're not gonna do that. Yeah. Yeah.

Louise Palanker (01:00:44):

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Well, do you find that because you're available on the internet, that you've got people from around the world or from across the country who have checked in?

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:00:52):

We do. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We've, we've got, you know, you guys know how podcasting, it's interesting because you can see where in the world they download. Yeah. So you can go, like, we use lips in, uh, like, you know, whatever. We've, we've hit every country, I think now. Yeah. We, we've got, um, uh, like, you know, especially like, uh, a lot of people in like in the service Yep. That are like in Germany and, uh, South Korea. Like we, we, and then you get that one weird one sometimes that pops up in Iran and you're like, is that guy dead? Did they kill that guy?

Fritz Coleman (01:01:24):

Like, they represent freedom to those people over there.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:01:26):

I, I guess I'm like, where, who is that? I hope he didn't get killed for listening to us <laugh>. We, we've had like Australian listeners find our podcasts and like all over, like con we got a lot of British listeners, tons of British listeners, uh, especially because they come, uh, they vacation in Orlando and they, they found us and they started listening to us. So like, we've been thinking about going to, we have a lot Texas. Cause Texas is Cowboy Florida. Yeah. <laugh>.

Fritz Coleman (01:01:49):

Oh, that's so funny.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:01:51):

Yeah. That's, and so it's interesting being able to see where, uh, you know, your downloads are coming from something that like terrestrial radio never was able to give you. Yeah. Like you could, you could see exactly. All right, uh, this is a true download from, uh, Albany or whatever, you know, it's like you see exactly like this person is downloading, uh, you know, from this guy's downtown Atlanta. It's like, what? Really? That's crazy from Sweden, you know?

Louise Palanker (01:02:15):

Yeah. I mean, you can really use stats to fine tune your business model and to, you know, improve, improve your game. So that's, I think that's all so fascinating, and especially since you both have different skills and can compliment one another in terms of your, your collaboration. But like, I think what I, you know, we were talking about it earlier, but what I admire most is just kind of like the easy, the easy give and take of your, of your conversation that, you know, you have to be really confident to be comfortable with, you know, someone else weighing in and the back and forth. And knowing that you're, he's gonna give me my, my, my slot to finish this thought. You know, he just had something he had to say right now. And you don't, you never seem aggravated. And I think that's kind of the key to having good chemistry with a, with a co-host

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:02:58):

Is and,

Fritz Coleman (01:02:58):

And, and, and drafting on what you just said. I think it was very important.

Louise Palanker (01:03:02):

I was talking Fritz, do you mind?

Fritz Coleman (01:03:03):

Oh, I thought you were done. No, I'm kidding. <laugh>, you went down to at the end of the sentence and you looked away.

Louise Palanker (01:03:06):

I thought, no, that's funny. Because I was just complimenting them and their ability to do it. And then I was, I thought

Fritz Coleman (01:03:11):

You were complimenting

Louise Palanker (01:03:12):

Me and then I was giving you an example of having no ability myself to allow you to Oh, okay. To jump in

Fritz Coleman (01:03:17):

Anyway. Be that as it may boys. Uh, one of the things that I was really impressed at, you know, we, we, we did a little research on you guys before we were guests on your show and learned that you were sort of out of the morning zoo era of radio. And I've had some horrible experience with the Morning zoo guys. They're a festival of snark and sarcasm, and it's always about them having to get the last word and get the joke in. And you can't win under those circumstances. But what I found so refreshing when we were a guest on your show was that you were engaged. You were very easy conversationalists. And I think that's what I mean, you're comfortable in your skin and we can have a conversation about anything. And I think that's to your benefit. You don't have to be, you know, hammering people with a sledgehammer every five minutes.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:04:01):

That is such a nice compliment. Yeah. We appreciate that. And you know, I'm gonna play that every morning when I wake up <laugh>. It's funny. Aw, it's funny you mentioned that because the whole like name of our show, A Mediocre Time with Tom and Dan is kind of a joke. Uh, you know, making fun of terrestrial radio, where we came from, where everything was always like the best. You're listening to the best radio show in the worst show, number one. And everything was the best and we're the best. And this is number one, number one in Orlando, whether we are or not, <laugh>. And then we'd always laugh about, it'd be like, uh, you know, how about just being normal? I'm, and I was like, I'm pretty sure Howard Stern is the best thing. <laugh> like you in a 14th market saying you're the best is kind, is stupid because uh, you're not the best.

(01:04:49):

Yeah. But, uh, we, we kind of, uh, always laughed at that and like, uh, the personality and you guys know the ego maniacs that live in the radio world and even the tv, like there's oh man, the narcissism. You guys have dealt with it. And, uh, absolutely. And me and Daniel were never like that. And so we always liked making fun of ourselves and just like having cool conversations and like, like being honest. And then we realized a long time ago, as long as we're honest and try not to be someone or not, and people were not like, I make fun of myself so much and Daniel does too. And we, he talks about his anxiety. We're so flawed, you know, we have to Yeah. We show.

Fritz Coleman (01:05:25):

I think that's what draws your listeners to you. Yeah. You're very real on the air. You're who you are. There's no facade. And I think that's what I was trying to say. And you having a conversation with us when we didn't know who you were and you didn't know who we were and you know, uh, it's, uh, I think that's great. It's a great quality.

Louise Palanker (01:05:43):

Well, you know what else is, you know what else is a real compliment to you guys, Tom and Dan, is that our producer Dina would like to ask you a question.

Fritz Coleman (01:05:49):

That's huge. You have No, this is the first time we've ever heard of her speak. Yeah. We

Louise Palanker (01:05:54):

Didn't know that she talked,

Speaker 5 (01:05:55):

First of all, I just wanna say like, you guys, like if they made a movie about podcasters, like you would be like the basis, because it seems like you kind of are hitting this sweet spot by marrying, um, like the intimacy, the authenticity of podcasting with like the fun and whimsy of like old school, like morning radio type of stuff. So I to, I'm like writing a screenplay in my mind right now, <laugh>. But, um, my question is, so there's this kind of, there has been, I just, this is like on the top of my mind cuz I just re-watched the Fisher King and there's like, the whole like plot is based on like what this guy says on the radio as an influential dj and then like the reaction of his listeners or one listener in particular. And there is a conversation right now, you know, since like Joe Rogan and everything about like, the influence that podcasters have. And I'm just wondering like if that's something that you guys think about, like, you know, kind of a responsibility that you might feel like you have to your audience and like how, you know, how you like, might negotiate that.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:06:58):

Well, well the first thing we did during the pandemic is we found every bit of misinformation and we told our listeners to do it. <laugh> <laugh>. No, but I see what we're like the bleach, we heard about the bleach, the mec put them, the mec put the light in your mouth. Um, but no, we, uh, no, we, we do think about that a lot, but our show, we never really dip into things and I think you'd agree with this. Yeah. We never get really get real serious. And we know that with our show and especially in the state that we're in, that a lot of our listeners are gonna be both people. You know, we're gonna have the most liberal people that wanna listen to us and we're gonna have the most conservative people that wanna listen to us. But at the end of the day, everybody just wants us to be us. See? Yeah, we do think about it, but we don't really dip our toe into much where we have to worry about, um, our influence. Yeah.

Fritz Coleman (01:07:45):

When, you know, that's probably very smart because I, in the dark world that we're living in, people want to be taken out of their heads. They don't need you reminding them about all the bad stuff in the world. So for an hour or so or however long you're on, they, you're, you're, you're giving 'em some relief, which is probably smart to stay out of the politics.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:08:02):

Well, well there are things we won't broadcast. There are things we won't talk about. There are things we won't do. I mean, even our broadcast from 2012 till now is grown up. Yeah. They're words we don't use anymore. They're things that we would never think to do that we probably maybe would've just riffed on it. Yeah. And we talk about how we're learning as you know, and we change, but, uh, we do stay away from politics cuz we realized, uh, that's the most toxic thing you could, uh, get into. Uh, so we, uh, you know, we do not talk about that. We stay away from like any controversial topics for the most part. But it's easy because me and Daniel don't really feel strongly about anything <laugh>. We, what we feel strongly about is doing the right thing and being good people, just being good people and taking care of our families and, and you know, wanting everybody to be happy.

(01:08:49):

And so it's like, it's easy for us because we're not hiding any agenda. No. Or like really, it's kinda like we just wanna live good lives and uh, and make people happy. Yeah. And, and it's like, it it is pretty simple to do that as long, you know, we don't have any like, uh, hey, we have to push this or we want to influence this. But I think a lot of podcasters, to answer a question a little more, I think a lot of podcasters, uh, got get into it, try to get into it, want to get into it for the same reason you're talking about. They wanna be that edgy person. And I think in a weird way we're watching podcast, uh, podcasting, and I think you'll agree with this tut, is that podcasting is kind of becoming what radio was when we we're leaving it, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, like we're seeing the same patterns kind of come along. Oh yeah. We're looking at YouTube influencers and Tom and I'll laughing, we'll see these guys doing like the old, uh, I've got five people and they all have their hand on a car and then the one that stay keeps his hand on the car the longest he'll get to win the car. And I'm like, oh my God. This is a radio bit from 1976 <laugh>.

Speaker 5 (01:09:52):

Yes. There's actually, apparently there's actually a great documentary about this, about like when they actually did this and had, well I think that one is actually about like real people who are trying to win that car. Not like a publicity stunt, but, um, thanks for reminding me that I gotta look up that documentary. But I do think that you guys are a positive influence, like overall, you know, because you're real, because you're not afraid to be yourselves and because you're like inspiring your audience that, you know, they can be, um, they can be authentic and and happy that way and they don't have to like, meet anybody's standards, like society standards of like masculinity or anything like that. Oh,

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:10:28):

That's a great, that's a great point. I think, and I'm sorry, I apologize for cutting you off. I think social media has taught everybody that it's not okay to be flawed. Right. Cuz every picture is great, every vacation is wonderful. Every, you know, people on a cruise ship, every girl, uh, has the tiniest waist. Every guy has abs. Uh, every, but yeah. But at the end of the day, we all know that's not true in our hearts, but our show is, there's nothing like I'm a a little guy. I'm a, I can be a bad father sometimes. I can be a bad husband sometimes. I'm a real person. I'm flawed. I make mistakes. Yeah. You, you bumble and do things like we're just real. And the comedy is in the flaw. It really is. We, we used to like, uh, when, when we were in radio, we used to get labeled as pessimists or negative or negative and we're like, well, there's nothing, nothing funny about telling a story about a vacation that I went on. And I'm like, I had a great time. Everything. He was like, the, the, the what's funny, the comedy is in the tragedy. Yeah. You haven't seen anybody laugh at somebody walking upstairs. <laugh>. Yeah. That

Louise Palanker (01:11:27):

Is an interesting point that sort of on social media, the goal is to, to depict, uh, perfection. And then the goal in, in, in, in doing an entertaining radio show is, is to be, uh, be honest about your flaws.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:11:39):

Yeah. I think this kinda comes back to the commercials you were talking about, our commercials. If we make a flub, if I say fuck in the commercial, if I like, I yeah. I leave it in because it's real. And that's what people want. Oh, we've made mistakes. Uh, uh, I've messed up the, like the, we're trying to promote something. I've messed it up. Daniel's laughing at me. I'm like, ah, but, and we'll just leave it in. We'll leave it in the commercial. We, we did one recently where we got the name of the, like the something, the product or got the date wrong. It was horrible. But we left it in because we realized that that was real. And we also realized that's the happy accident. People, more people are gonna remember us saying our own client that we're getting paid saying their name wrong. Now we did call them and say, Hey, we're just gonna say your name wrong.

Fritz Coleman (01:12:20):

But you said in the documentary, sometimes the, the, the, the business owner seizes that and understands the value and you guys being real and it, it sells the product even better.

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:12:29):

No one's ever said, no one has ever not seen the value in it. I I would tell you that yes, no one, everyone has seen the value in it. No one has ever said, change that commercial. That's wrong. Or you shouldn't have flubbed no one. And I don't think they ever will. No. Because they know in our hearts, we wanna do, it's all in our intent. And Tom says that a lot, we wanna do a good job for you. And you know, we do and we realized no one cares about anything but money. As long as it works, <laugh> and as long as our listeners, uh, buy our, our advertiser's product or use them, uh, that's all they care about it. That's a good job. Yeah. Yeah. And so as long as it works now if it doesn't work, we're screwed. <laugh>.

Louise Palanker (01:13:05):

<laugh>. All right. Well, I would love to thank you so much for, for joining us. This has been just a really extraordinarily fascinating conversation because you guys are really, you a groundbreaking, uh, you know, I appreciate that pulling, pulling radio in into the podcast space and kind of inspiring everyone who

Fritz Coleman (01:13:20):

You're really good at what you do. You're really good at what you do, guys. Well, thank

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:13:25):

You. You guys are great at what you do because we've done interviews for other shows that, uh, and you guys know this, it's, we used to laugh at that good, uh, terrestrial radio we're, the hosts would've no clue, like zero prep work. Like they wouldn't even barely know the guest name. They get it wrong sometimes. Hey, then like the person would come in and then it would be the generic questions. Like, thank you very much for, uh, you know, I mean, you, you didn't have to go watch our documentary People Expect with a Louise and Fritz podcast, <laugh>. That's, you know, so, oh my God. It's been a pleasure talking to you guys.

Louise Palanker (01:13:57):

Awesome. Well, here come our closing credits and I, I just, we're gonna put all the fun stuff in the show notes of how to find you on Twitch and on Facebook and, and all, all of your

Tom Vann & Dan Dennis  (01:14:06):

Different, well

Louise Palanker (01:14:07):

Thank you guys so much. Forums. Thank you so much for joining us. We would love to continue this conversation with you on Instagram and Twitter where we are at Media Path Pod and on Facebook where our show page is Media Path Podcast. And our Facebook group is Media Path with Fritz and Weezy podcast community. You can find full video of podcast episodes loaded with bonus visual content on our YouTube channel Media Path podcast. You can write to us at Media Path podcast@gmail.com. If you enjoy this show, please give us a nice rating in Apple Podcast and talk about it nicely on social media. If you wouldn't mind, uh, you can sign up for our Fun and Dish newsletter. We don't really spam you. Just, uh, the once a week you can read it. It's okay. It's, you know, the political ads are gonna stop this week. So you go ahead and sign up. <laugh>. We wanna thank our guests d Daniel Dennis and Tom Van. Our team includes Dina Friedman, John Maddox, Sharon Beo, bill Fiac, Thomas Hubble, Mason Brown, Garrett Arch, and you. Our theme music is by me and John Maddox. I'm Louise Lanker here with Fritz Coleman. And Tom and Dan, and we will see you along the media path.

Fritz Coleman (01:15:09):

Excellent, Travis. Hey, listen, if you hang out there for just a second, we're gonna take a picture of us in front of the TV screen with you guys smiling so we can put it on social media. Let.