TV Drama & Mystery Writing featuring Scott Shepherd
Scott Shepherd has overseen hundreds of hours of your favorite TV shows like The Equalizer, Miami Vice, Quantum Leap and many more including Monarch, his new show on Fox and Hulu.
Scott is currently pouring his gift for storytelling into a series of mystery novels featuring Scotland Yard Detective Austin Grant. Scott is with us to share his writing tips, tricks and practices, his passion for Steven King, The Twilight Zone and Bruce Springsteen, and a bouquet of stories about his intriguing show biz lineage which includes his great grandfather, Louis B. Mayer.
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Speaker 1 (00:00:00):
Louise Palanker (00:00:05):
Welcome to Media Path. I am Louise Palanker.
Fritz Coleman (00:00:08):
And I'm Fritz Coleman
Louise Palanker (00:00:09):
We are like that lovely librarian who helped you find the latest Beverly Cleary book, and then pointed out that if you like Henry and Rsk, you may also love Sounder or Johnny Tremaine, or across five Aprils or Super Fudge. We lead you towards books and shows and movies that you may enjoy. That was impressive. Thank you. And the good news is that we will never ask you for any late fines, although Prime may charge you $20 for a film you thought you were streaming for free. So be careful where you click. Coming up, we'll be talking to Scott Shepherd, Hollywood Royalty, who has carved out a stellar career as a TV producer, showrunner, and mystery writer. Scott joins us shortly, but first, Fritz, what are you recommending for us?
Fritz Coleman (00:00:50):
All right. I wanna talk about a great news series called The Patient. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. This is a series, uh, produced for fx, uh, but it streams on Hulu right now. This is a psychological thriller in the extreme. Steve Corll plays psychotherapist Alan Strauss, who gets taken hostage by one of his patients, Sam Fortner, who reveals himself to be a serial killer. He has an unusual request to help him curb his homicidal tendencies. That's all I'm gonna give away, Alan. The doctor has to unwind. Sam's Disturb disturbed mine to stop Sam from killing and to save himself as well. The show is created by the guys that did The Americans, which is hugely pop, uh, popular on fx. Amazing tension, especially when it's just Alan and Sam on screen playing psychological chess with one another. There's some elements to Alan's life that the therapist's life, which kind of put pressure on how he reacts to stuff too. I'm telling you, this is the best acting you've ever seen from Steve Corll. It's so well done, very quiet, very contemplative. He way underplays it. He's absolutely believable. As this therapist, it's 10 episodes, episode four, drop this week. It's the patient on Hulu. I I really recommended it.
Louise Palanker (00:02:03):
So this is like, if, what about Bob was not twisted enough for
Fritz Coleman (00:02:07):
You? <laugh> think. Go.
Louise Palanker (00:02:08):
Okay. All right. I'm there. Okay. So, uh, you may have received this news alert on your phone. Uh, I went to the movies.
Fritz Coleman (00:02:16):
I did hear that. I'm so happy that you got out of this place,
Louise Palanker (00:02:19):
Right? Yes. Uh, I have four shots and a recent Covid case Recovery fortifying my immunity. And so we went to see where the Crawdads sing because we so loved the book. This is a book with 331,000 reviews and a solid five star average on Amazon. So the film was much anticipated, and you will be able to stream it free soon. You can purchase it right now on Amazon, YouTube, and Apple tv, where the sing tells the story of Kaya an abandoned girl who raises herself in the dangerous marshlands of North Carolina. You celebrate her courage, her resilience, her ingenuity, her brilliance, and her fortitude as survival breaks way to mastery and accomplishment. But of, of course, a woman alone in the woods is what certain empty headed town folk men may refer to as an attractive nuisance. Rather than managing their own sexual desires, they seek to control and punish. Her Metaphors abound in cra Dads, the marsh is secluded and mysterious and wild. Like Kaya seagulls are familiar and accepting, like family feathers are friendship. The crada, well, they can't actually sing because they are fish. And the only fish that can sing is the bass who hangs on your wall and knows some of the words to take me to the river. Am I right? Zoologists,
Fritz Coleman (00:03:30):
Louise Palanker (00:03:32):
Can I get an amen? All right. As Kaia matures and begins to explore romantic connections, one boy breaks her heart and another breaks his neck in a fall and is found dead. The Marsh girl is the primary suspect. The unfolding trial threatens to reveal that far darker than the secluded life of the Marsh girl are the secrets hidden deep within the lives of respectable town people where the Crawdad sings stars Daisy Edgar Jones as Kaya Taylor. John Smith plays Tate Harris. Dickinson is Chase the cast also includes Michael Hyatt, Sterling Macer Jr. And David Strath. Aaron, the film is produced by Reese Witherspoon and Lauren Nus Statter. I found it to be a beautiful adaptation of a well-loved book.
Fritz Coleman (00:04:10):
Louise Palanker (00:04:11):
Yeah, I think you should
Fritz Coleman (00:04:12):
Like it. Oh, zoom it.
Louise Palanker (00:04:14):
Yeah, please do. Uh, let's welcome our guests. Scott Shepherd has overseen hundreds of hours of the television that has warmed our Souls, the Equalizer, Miami Vice Quantum Leap, and many more. He teaches TV writing at the University of Texas in Austin. Writes best-selling mystery novels and comes from a long line of show Biz Legends, beginning with his great-grandfather, Louisie b Mayer. Welcome Scott.
Scott Shepherd (00:04:36):
Thanks for having me.
Fritz Coleman (00:04:37):
Great to see you, Scott. Not only that, are you kidding? His father produced breakfast at Tiffany's, right? His maternal grandfather started 20th Century Fox and Universal Studios. He's pretty much four walled show business. He had to go into show business. It was mandatory.
Louise Palanker (00:04:53):
That's how, that was a family business, right, Scott? Man.
Fritz Coleman (00:04:55):
Scott Shepherd (00:04:56):
I mean, I didn't really understand what the family business was growing up <laugh>. Um, I mean, I just knew there were a lot of people who showed up on television or the movies that would come by the house. Um, and I think, uh, I I, I kind of made a thing that the first 10 years of my, uh, TV writing career, I thi you know, that I kind of didn't talk about my family at all. And I kind of, and I think I probably chose writing cuz I loved books and reading and I wanted to write. And I also figured in a, you know, business that has, you know, a lot of nepotism and weird things, I wanted to be accepted for what I was doing. And, you know, the printed page hopefully speaks for itself as opposed to who, you know, what you did, et cetera, et cetera. And now, I mean, you know, 30, 40 years later, like you say, lots of shows, hundreds of scripts later, few books, I'm kind of going, okay, uh, you know, I'm happy to talk about my family and there's interesting stories and it's, you know, so it's a
Fritz Coleman (00:05:46):
Tough spot for you to be in as a child. Holy cow. Trying to carve yourself out of that pack.
Scott Shepherd (00:05:51):
Um, yeah, I guess, uh, so yeah, so I took a little bit of a different route, you know, I guess writing and reading a few books, as you can see as I'm surrounded by, by the way, I like both of your guys' recommendations. Um, in fact, we're gonna watch the fourth episode, I think of the pa of the who of the patient of Tonight mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And I'm anxious to see the movie. I love that book. And I love that girl she was in. Um, normal people, I think. Right? The girl who's the, the star of that.
Louise Palanker (00:06:15):
Yeah. The best American actresses are are British.
Scott Shepherd (00:06:18):
Yes, of course. Yes. Well, well, you know, the TV show I'm doing now, we have, it is distinctly country western and, uh, every, I don't think there's a person from, you know, the south or the or country except for Trace. You know, we're doing this show Monarch that just came on the last couple nights. Um, so yeah. Where is
Fritz Coleman (00:06:35):
That? Let's plug that. Where, where's that? Where can that be
Scott Shepherd (00:06:37):
Started? Uh, yeah, so we, me and a buddy, uh, came in about a third of the way through and took over, uh, the show Monarch. It's on Fox. It premiered night before last. Um, they showed it again last night and they're showing it again tomorrow night, the, the pilot. And it's, um, it starts next Tuesday and it's regular time slot. Nine o'clock here. Um, yeah, that's it right there. Um, and guys, this was Susan Sarandon and Trace Atkins, a big country singer. Nice. Uh, and Anna Frill is a really good actress, which she was in pushing Daisies and Marcel and a lot of British things. And she, and what it is literally is a, um, we kind of describe it as empire meets, uh, Nashville meets, uh, succession. Uh, it's, uh, it's really, uh, country western family soap opera, great music. So a musical when there's a lot of mystery, mayhem and twists and turns and, uh, it's fun. You know, it's a fun network show. And, uh, we'll see how it does. It did, it did well. I mean, Fox is really happy with how debut the other night. We'll see what happens. You can also see it on Hulu.
Louise Palanker (00:07:37):
You've got me sold. That sounds amazing.
Fritz Coleman (00:07:40):
And whatever Trace Atkins said, you believe because the guy's got the pipes, man,
Scott Shepherd (00:07:44):
<laugh>, I, I, I like, I'm not a big, I'm a much more of a big rock and roll, uh, classic rock and roll, huge sp Springsteen amongst others fans. Um, I knew a little bit of country music mostly from like Urban Cowboy. Uh, my sister, I told her what I was doing like six, seven months ago. She goes, Trey Hacks. Oh my God. The lowest voice in country music. <laugh>.
Louise Palanker (00:08:02):
I know. No, he's, and
Scott Shepherd (00:08:03):
He, and he's actually the best, he turns out he's the best thing in the show. I mean, he's sort of like, uh, kind of that Chris Christofferson sort of Yeah. Art, you know, like back in Stars born. Yeah. He's, he's cool.
Louise Palanker (00:08:12):
It's interesting cuz country musicians are storytellers. Whenever country music is discussed, the, the stories and the songs are discussed. And so, you know, this year we had Tim McGraw on Faith Hill in, uh, I can never remember the name of the year, but 18.
Scott Shepherd (00:08:25):
Yeah. The spit off of Yellowstone.
Louise Palanker (00:08:26):
Right. Yeah. And they were, they were like, you, you would never know that they weren't actors if you didn't know. So,
Scott Shepherd (00:08:31):
No, no. Well, you know, what's the old joke about? You know, what do you get if you play a country song backwards? You get your, uh, trailer back, your girlfriend back and your dog <laugh>,
Fritz Coleman (00:08:39):
Right? Yeah. Well, let's, let's drill down on the business a little bit while you're talking about it. So the, the thing was piloted and then it aired three times, or will have aired three times. So at what point do you get a season pickup or how do you get, I mean the business is so different now with streaming, especially how do it's, how do you get, how do you get a guarantee?
Scott Shepherd (00:08:58):
I don't know. I mean, we literally came in, like I say, you know, to kind of help the show, which was sort of, um, little problematic to start. Um, and it was supposed to come on in January, talk about weird stories of the business. It was supposed to come on back in January at the end of the N F C football game. And then what ended up happening was, because we had to come in and we reshot like four or five of the first episodes, we reordered them like a giant sudoko puzzle cuz we tried to keep as much as it was there. And then kind of moved it forward. And then Trace got Covid and a couple other actors got Covid. And here it was like in January. Um, and suddenly we couldn't stay on the air, uh, if we come on the air.
But Fox really was happy with the way we had turned the show around and turned it into, you know, something they're really happy with and we think it's fun. They said, we're gonna save it for the fall. So then what they do is they put it on the fall and they put it on on Sunday. You know, and I, I've been doing, you know, I mean we've all been doing this a long time. This business, you know, the media business and you think you've seen it all till something changes. So they were gonna put it on, uh, after N F L football on Sunday with a big preview, like, like that was gonna be in a slot Sunday night at eight o'clock in the east and here and et cetera, et cetera. You know, five o'clock here, et cetera, et cetera. And, and then rerun it a couple times.
And then what ended up happening like 10 minutes before it aired, my buddy who runs the show that had me come on and help him, sends me an email. He just got an email saying, oh, good news. Like Fox has like literally decided because the games didn't go into overtime, we're gonna start 15 minutes early. I'm going like, cuz we get more live people watching it. I'm going, yeah, okay, that's good, I guess. Or people watching it. But what about all the people like my mother-in-law and people back east who had taped it at eight o'clock and called me later that night and said, what's going on? Like 15 minutes and early? Oh, well, we'll get plenty of more times to watch it. And so they got a big number, but you know, people have watched it and then you watch it on Hulu. So I guess they take all these numbers and they put 'em up in the air and then the big thing will be to see how we do next, um, Tuesday.
But supposedly, you know, it was theirs highest rated premiere in three years on the network. Ooh. But you know, I mean, for most of us, right, if we're gonna recommend shows we're watching, I have to say, uh, I don't think I watch anything really on the networks. I don't watch anything live except for sports and even tape that. So it's really hard. You don't need a huge number. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, I think they are very invested in the show. Um, and I think what's the way we kind of did this show, it's 11 episodes and we're on for six weeks straight. And then we were preempted for two weeks for the World Series in the election. And we built it to kind of a cool mystery cliffhanger so that you can advertise that during, you know, the baseball games. I kind of a joking recently, if you watched football, it's like you were watching a Monarch ad and a football game broke out. Um,
Fritz Coleman (00:11:41):
Did you write any of the episodes?
Scott Shepherd (00:11:43):
Um, I wrote, um, I wrote a lot of the, what I basically did is I wrote three of the stories, um, and worked on all the scripts in terms of coming up with the stories. And then John Feldman, who came in to run the show as a really good friend of mine, we'd done a bunch of shows together. Um, like true calling and, uh, designated Survivor and Reunion and shows like that. You know, we had a staff that would do the stories. We, I kept pushing the story engine forward and then John and I literally spent, uh, the rest of our time with the editors in the editing rooms. Um, but what was amazing is I, it was supposed to be 10 weeks of work, it turned out to be seven months. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But, um, I never left this room, which was unbelievably great.
Louise Palanker (00:12:21):
Oh my gosh. The whole time you got to work from home.
Scott Shepherd (00:12:23):
Wow. Yeah. And I'm never, I'm not, you know, I mean I, I kind of was doing a little bit of this remote editing on, we'd had a show called Haven for a few years of sci-fi show on, uh, it was based on a, a Stephen King book and we were, uh, cutting in Nova Scotia or Toronto and I did it then. It's so perfective. We would've the writer's room in the morning, um, and we'd, you know, sit for like two or three hours on Zoom, then I'd go and work with the editors, but the editors would be like the top half of the screen, like I'm looking here would be the picture. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and then they'd be down at the bottom. It was to me great. Cuz we were working round the clock 24 7 cuz of the, the way we found the show when we first took it over, we had to wear Christmas day, Thanksgiving day, but we're home sitting in our sweats at one o'clock on a Saturday morning. You're not stuck in an editing room somewhere having to drive home. And you can actually see the editors in their own boxes. I could actually see them as opposed to sit sitting behind them. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> like literally poking them on the shoulder. And it was, um, really great. But one of the editors who I literally talked to every day for like four months, I finally met him at a place at the, with Beverly Glen Deli for the first time, Beverly Glen Deli. Um, I'd never met him until like a week ago.
Louise Palanker (00:13:21):
So are you a DoorDash person or a GrubHub or,
Scott Shepherd (00:13:25):
Uh, DoorDash and Postmates. Okay. And, you know, and we, we literally do, um, you know, I'm sort of like my wife and I say I'm the hunter and forager. I go, I've got the food and bring it back in the market, out of the market. We eat outside lunches. But I, you know, I don't know for a writer and the life I've had, you know, and I was working on these two novels in the last couple years and pilots and everything, this has been fine. I'm lucky enough that I'm living in a nice house here in the west side. We were talking about when we first got married 35 years ago, I was doing the equalizer in New York and we were living in a one bedroom apartment the size of this office. And I can't imagine what it mu would've would've been like that first year of this pandemic to be cooped up. I mean, they would have a nice view outside my, we had a pool. Uh, we feel blessed, you know, and I felt like I got, I read 75 books last year, did 11 hours a television, wrote a novel, did three pilots, and still had a time in my hand. Just all that time not being in the car commuting. We're all in la you know what it's like. Yeah. Don't have to do it. Yeah.
Fritz Coleman (00:14:22):
Interesting. Le let's go back to your, um, family history. I'm proud to say that you are the first guest we've ever had that has gone to baseball games with Joe DiMaggio and Marilyn Monroe.
Scott Shepherd (00:14:36):
Uh, I might have done that, I don't remember that. But I did go with, um, like, well, my father knew them and he has a very famous, interesting Marilyn Rose story. I can tell you. Um, and I don't remember meeting her. I probably did when I was
Fritz Coleman (00:14:48):
In, in your vast, uh, work of background information on the internet. Somehow that came
Scott Shepherd (00:14:55):
Into play. Well, uh, you know, the, my dad represented Marilyn Monroe in the, in the fifties. And, um, I was born in New York, um, I in the mid fifties and when we were living there, it's so funny. My f my mother told me a story when she was pregnant with me and my dad was, uh, that him and my, that my mother and father and Marilyn Monroe, um, uh, Norma Jean, right? Uh, you know, uh, were walking down the street and my mother was six months pregnant with me. And literally they were telling, my mother was telling me how she could just do this thing. She could walk down the street and you wouldn't know his Marilyn Monroe. And my dad was talking about that with her. And he literally said to Marilyn Monroe, he said, you know, why don't you become Marilyn? And he literally left missing a stride like the ambience she took on.
Suddenly people came running out of this, you know, and they were surrounded and mobbed. And my mother was six months pregnant week, had never been so frightened in her entire life. And like, it was like a switch, something she could turn on and off. And I went, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, sure enough, I see that movie, A nice little lovely movie. It was called, um, my Weekend with Marilyn, I think with Eddie Redman and, um, Mel Williams. And that was in that movie, not specifically with me or whatever, but I mean, that was something that was true. And, um, so I mean, you know, I don't, she was gone. I mean, she was, she died when I was like six years old, the baseball game. They probably got mixed up in the thing. There is a story that I went to, uh, when I was nine years old, I went to the Dodger.
I'm a huge Dodger fan, uh, you know, watch every game and, you know, did tons up until recently. Um, we go 40, 50 times a year. We went to the World Series. It was me, my grandfather, bill Gatz, his best friend who was a guy named Artie Deutch, who after my grandfather died in the late sixties, sort of became a pseudo grandfather. Artie Deutsche's claim to fame was that he was, and I knew none of this growing up, uh, and you'll see why this way the story ends, is that he was heir to the Sears Roebuck f you know, fortune. And in 1926 or whenever it was, uh, Artie got a cold in Chicago and didn't go to school that day. So Lo and Leopold kidnapped, kidnapped Bobby Franks and killed him instead of Artie, who was supposed to be their target. So he kinda, this is my grandfather's best friends.
We lived with this kind of golden, you know, uh, glow, you know, halo over him, I guess. Uh, so was Artie and my grandfather and Jack Benny, who is a really closer to my grandfather's and a lovely funny man, uh, not cheap at all, <laugh>. Um, and, and then Frank Sinatra, who's my grandfather's, one of my grandfather's two or three best friends, and Mia Farrow, who was 19 at the time. And they were engaged. And so we're sitting up in the club level, Dodger Stadium, and I get home and my grandmother says, so how was the World Series? And nine year old me not knowing what the hell's going on goes, oh God, the World Series is so exciting. They come over and they take your picture all day long. You know, <laugh>, I thought that's what happened if you went to the World Series, not realize, you know.
And then I got got to know, uh, when my grandfather died, um, uh, so my grandmother was, was, was, her name was Edie. She was Edie Getz, and she was Edith Ma. So she is El B's daughter, and her sister was, I mean, the Hollywood history's crazy. It's like, you know, her sister was Irene Ma, who was married to David Selznick. And so he was my great-uncle. And I still see the cousins, everyone. One of the cousins, Danny is his son. Her son is still around at the motion pictures home. I'm in touch with him a little bit, but you know, Irene, so, you know, and Irene went on to produce like streetcar names. I mean, it was like a, just a crazy sort of thing that I wasn't aware of. So when my grandfather died, I'm 13 and in 69, and I go to, uh, his funeral, uh, and as Danny Kay and Frank Sinatra delivering the eulogy.
And that Christmas might me and my family go down with Uncle Frank, who I just know to be this guy who's like occasionally on TV and sings a song or two. I had no idea who he was. Um, you know, the problems when your parents and my dad, who at that time was a big, had started Cmma at the big agency, moving off from producing, then went back to Warner Brothers, he was traveling all the time. I didn't see him that much living that big Hollywood life. I didn't know who any of these people were. I just knew there was Uncle Frank. He had a big train set in Palm Springs. We stayed down there. And I like fly on a plane with him cuz he wants to go pick up some people on Sun Valley. And he needed somebody to play backgammon. And then the story, I don't, my grandmother never told me this.
I was very close to my grandmother. She died 20 years later, um, supposedly according to Kitty Kelly. So I guess we should put a big asterisk by that. But stra, I do know you saw a lot of my grandmother and certainly those six months, and he had broken up with Mia, Mia and, um, uh, and Sinatra got married at my grandmother's house. We have pictures of that all around somewhere in 67. So he was kind of romancing my grandmother. And supposedly, according to that book is that he gave my grandmother like a bracelet to say, um, you know, ask her to marry him. And supposedly as she says, and I, I don't put this past my grandmother saying, I can't marry you, Frank or nothing but a gangster <laugh>. And that was the last time we saw Uncle Frank <laugh>, or the last time you saw your grandmother. Wow. But yeah, I said, well, maybe that's true. And then, and then, you know, then I go to college and I'm listening records and kind of cool music. I'm going, oh, that's that <laugh>.
Louise Palanker (00:20:04):
Wow. Yeah. If you were kind of, you know, unclear about who everybody was, that means your parents weren't making a big deal out of it.
Scott Shepherd (00:20:12):
No, I mean, you know, it's like, you know, the people we knew who were really close to were just great people, I thought mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, like my sister's godfather was a guy named, um, man named Lenny Gersh. Leonard Gersh mm-hmm. <affirmative>, who, uh, um, was a playwright. Didn't write a ton, but he also was very friendly with lots. Uh, you know, he, uh, but he wrote, butterflies are Free. That was his, his two most favorite things were Butterflies are Free. He wrote the play in the movie. And then he also wrote, um, the musical part, the Interludes and Stars Born, you know, born in a Trunk, um, and Stars born with Judy Garland and he knew everybody. Um, you know, my mother was really great friends with like Roddy McDowell. I mean, Audrey Hepburn came to the house, she was like, just Audrey, you know?
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, to me. Uh, and like, you know, but people like Lenny Gersh, John Foresight was like my sister's godfather, you know? And the nicest man Yeah. I ever knew, you know. Um, and so these were people that I just knew. And so, like Aaron and Aaron Spelling was somebody who was really close to my mother. So it was strangely, when I broke into the business, I had already done a few things on my own. And I kind of got sort of presented to Aaron's partner, duke Vincent, who's still around, um, and up in Santa Barbara, you know, my brother was running casting for Aaron and said something at a dinner table. He says, you know, Scott in the last year is like, you know, writing with this writing partner and they've written four movies. Nothing's happened with, but they sold a pilot, which was true.
And he goes, how come, you know, you haven't come to us? And I'm going, well, I didn't wanna, you know, uh, pray on my Family Connection, I'll do it on my own. They go, go in and meet this person, let him read something. So we, it was this show called Matt Houston. I don't know if you guys were, it was, it was a show. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, it was Aaron's version of a cop show. And, uh, so me and my partner, Dan Pine, who's a great writer, who we've stayed close over the years, we're writing, we're doing stuff together. Again, 40 years later, he is been in the movie business. I've been the TV business. We got 12 novels between us and it's kind of cool. But we were starting out then, and we went in and we pitched an idea for this Matt Houston show, and they really liked the script and they gave us another one. And then the next one, the third one, the story editor got promoted to a director because the director got in a bus in a boat accident. And the showrunner, this guy Michael Fisher, who was one of our mentors who'd done Starsky and Hutch, and that show said, you guys wanna come in for three weeks and be story editors. And our joke to Michael until he passed away like 10 years ago, whenever we'd see him, we would say, are, are three weeks up yet <laugh>? Cause
He worked every day for decades since. So
Fritz Coleman (00:22:36):
Let me te let me test another piece of your history just to see if I read this wrong. <laugh>, did you, uh, get bedtime stories read to you by Raul Doll Uhhuh
Scott Shepherd (00:22:47):
<affirmative>? Yeah. Is that true? Yeah, that's true. That's
Fritz Coleman (00:22:50):
Exciting. Did that give you your passion for storytelling? Was
Scott Shepherd (00:22:53):
He, you know, it's, it's, it's funny that you mentioned that. You know, um, I actually, uh, yeah, I, when I was actually gonna do my, my first book, I told that story in a le when I was trying to get my first book sold four years ago, uh, five or six years ago, which was a noir harsher. I told that story. Um, and, um, because, you know, one of the big literary I've been asked a lot recently when I, now they've written these last couple books and the books before, what drew you to, these are mostly mysteries and thrillers. I had like 10,000 of them here. I, you know, I've collected first editions and read, I'm gonna become friends. I knew a few people of mystery writers, but I was like drawn to mystery writer. I, the Hardy Boys was the first thing I ever read.
Oh. And my paternal grandmother would come out from Kansas City every year and she'd bring me two Hardy boy books. And what I loved about the Hardy Boy books, besides it being great at, you know, mysteries for an eight year old to read, you'd get to the end. And I would say, and Joe and Frank, Frank were unaware that a week they would be involved in the Secret of the Old Mill. I go, Ooh, another one's coming, you know, <laugh>. So I think I started the series television thing going, and then I read Ross McDonough, I have all his books. And then, you know, the other guy who's a big influence, I'm just finishing this mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Fritz Coleman (00:23:59):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> Steve King. Cool. Yeah.
Scott Shepherd (00:24:01):
Yeah. He was like my hero. Uh, and, um, so yeah, you know what, but what had happened is Ro Doll, um, was married to Patricia Neal. Mm-hmm. Um, and who was, you know, a great actress. Um, and she was one of my dad's clients when he was, um, running c you know, c m a in the sixties, um, as an and so Roell, you know, who all I knew about Ro was that he had written, um, that Chocolate Factory book, you know? Yeah. That was, and James the Giant Keach. Um, but he used to come up and tell his bedtime stories. And I would, I remember I was writing something about how I became a writer and my, is that, there was one story I particularly remember him saying. It was very simply said. He came up and said, once upon a time there was a octopus named Guss. And, you know, um, you know, and, and then it is like, and then he g hatch an egg, and then you Scott ate an egg and then it hatched goodnight. And then he walked away, <laugh>,
Fritz Coleman (00:24:58):
Scott Shepherd (00:24:59):
And I'm going to sleep going like, well, I was absolutely horrified going like, what's growing in my stomach, but also fascinated to the mystery of it. So, you know, that was kind of interesting. And the really interesting thing about Roll Dohl was, um, you know, over the years, you know, I've started reading his short story collection, you know, and he's written some of the great horror stories ever. Um, you know, uh, and, but the other thing was that Pat Neal who won the actress one, one, the for hud, which is fantastic, and
Fritz Coleman (00:25:27):
I just saw her in a face in the crowd like two nights ago. Again, one of the greatest movies of all time without Question,
Scott Shepherd (00:25:33):
One of the great endings of all time. Didn't we all wish for that? I kept, I kept telling my wife from, uh, 2016 to 2020 <laugh>, well, all that guy, the orange hair have his face in the crowd moment, <laugh>. And he, and he kept having them and it didn't matter. Um, you know, but, uh,
Fritz Coleman (00:25:46):
Crowd was not
Scott Shepherd (00:25:48):
Well, I think we'll pick cuz pe most people dunno what facing the crowd is, but it's a great movie I created, I'll
Fritz Coleman (00:25:52):
Tell you. It is, it's such a, uh, prescient. Oh, exactly. And, you know, uh, what's his name, bud Schulman that wrote, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, uh, on the Waterfront. What, what a fantastic
Scott Shepherd (00:26:06):
Writer. No, no. I mean, it's so gr I mean, you know, to me, I love those mo you know, growing up, I mean, I didn't see a lot of, I mean, the movies I saw growing up were like my, my five year old, you know, grand nephew sees now like my Mary Poppins in the Sound of Music. We go to those. But, you know, when I got outta college, my first job was working for, um, I was driving a messenger service. I mean, I was lucky working in the on in TV by, I was talking, I was 25 in my early twenties. I was running a messenger service. And I, and I ended up meeting this guy who worked for Sam Goldwin Jr. Um, whom my, I was kind of strange when his father and my great-grandfather started out together in the, the twenties. Um, and, uh, anyway, what we were doing, we were taking care of his dad's film prints, and he had the 16 millimeter collection of all those great Samuel Goldwin movies, like Best Years of Our Lives and Dodsworth and, you know, ball of Fire and, um, you know, pride of the Yankees and these, these incredible movies.
And what I would do on the weekends is I would take the 16 millimeter projector home. I was living with a bunch of guys, and we, we, like in the Living Room, which had a big white wall, we'd roll the, you know, we'd change the wheels, everything. And we'd have people come over and we'd watch these old black and white movies. Wow. And then my friend Tom Boley, God rest his soul, had one of the great 16 millimeter collections. Everything from like, beautiful, pristine, prince, 60 millimeter close encounters and ET when they came out. Oh. So I had this love of movies that was Gus obviously ingrained in me growing up, but I didn't know any of it. I discovered it after they were all kind of gone. And I'll, I'll never forget, it's like I, I had a, a really nice kid who was working for me on one of my shows, and about 10 years ago, he gives me a list of his top hundred movies, and I'm going, yeah, great.
And he goes, what's your number one movie? My favorite movie at all time? He goes, it's Back to the Future. I'm going, yeah, okay. That's a fun movie. But I looked, there was a list of a hundred movies, there was not a movie on there before in 1980. Mm-hmm. And I sat there going like, you know, there's all this stuff where all these movies came from, you know? Yeah. And I said, you know, I said, have you ever seen Sunset Boulevard? Have you ever seen, you know, A Place in the Sun? Have you ever seen these movies? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. They were. And I just, I just wish we could force people to watch that storytelling, you know, instead of in, in, instead of re just remaking them just to see these movies. You know? What,
Fritz Coleman (00:28:22):
What is your favorite of all time?
Scott Shepherd (00:28:24):
Well, I think the, my favorite of all time, I, you know, I think the best movie ever made in my own way, because it just hits so many spots. It's why I don't, not that he needs any freaking plug plugging. Um, it's all referenced all over, this is The Wizard of Oz, because I think it's everything. It's a musical. It's, it's romantic, it's scary, it's fun, it's imaginative. I mean, that's, I think that's like the movie, movie of all time. You know,
Fritz Coleman (00:28:47):
Mary's black and white with color and shows that it, they can both work in same movie.
Scott Shepherd (00:28:51):
We taught him to that. It's just incredible. It's just incredible. But I, you know, to me, you know, it's, uh, placing the, I, I would say placing the Sun. I have like a five that are always in there, like placing the suns in there. Um, godfather Wanted Two, can't separate 'em. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, I, because maybe as a writer, and it is, I love Butch Cassidy. I mean, I love every minute of that movie. You know, I always talk about scenes with writers. It's the best opening scene I think of any movie ever.
Fritz Coleman (00:29:18):
William Goldman great writer. I read his book. Great
Scott Shepherd (00:29:20):
Writer. I mean, I, you know, I never took a writing course, you know, uh, I never, you know, I, I, you know, was teaching. I don't teach at UT since The Pandemic, but we did it for seven years, a kind of cool course, which I can tell you about. But, you know, the one thing I tell people read and I said is still, as apo, the only book I ever read, only I've only read two books on writing ever, um, on Writing King, which is just, just interesting, especially the out writing novels and adventures in the screen trade. I mean, you know, which to me tells you everything. I mean, he wrote that book, what, 40 years ago? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, every, what's the first word? What's the first line of it? Nobody Knows Nothing, you know, <laugh> <laugh>.
Louise Palanker (00:29:54):
Wow. Did you, did you watch the Emmys last night?
Scott Shepherd (00:29:56):
No, <laugh>. I, I, you know, I was watching, I was watching the football, I was watching the Mannings on football, and it's like, I, and then I flip over to see who won, and I just kind of go like, you know, I don't know, the one time I got nominated for an Emmy, I didn't even go. I, you know, it's like, I, I just have something about, um, everybody's self congratulating themselves. Maybe I had a huge hit show. I'd feel different, but I don't know
Louise Palanker (00:30:18):
It, like, it just, it just gives you a little snapshot of the, the industry in this moment. And I remember when it was, when, when it was just so revolutionary that House of Cards and Netflix show was, was winning Emmy's. And last night they were making jokes about the death of Netflix. So, you know, we just keep finishing these circles and starting a new circle. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and,
Scott Shepherd (00:30:41):
No, yeah, I know it. It's, uh, go ahead. What you were saying.
Louise Palanker (00:30:45):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's still storytelling though, right?
Scott Shepherd (00:30:49):
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. No, it's still storytelling. Uh, you know, I, you know, it's funny, I, um, comes in contact with him, uh, a good friend of ours, um, Bob Greenblatt, you know, Bob, uh, you know, Bob, uh, Showtime, nbc, and I know him back from Fox. I, I arrived.
Fritz Coleman (00:31:08):
He was the head of NBC Entertainment when I was there and left just a
Scott Shepherd (00:31:11):
Little bit before in the, in the ni in the 2000 tens. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. In 2010, 2011, I remember me and my wife and Bob were having dinner, and he was just about to take over. NBC had told us he was doing that. And I said, there's come a time, you know, someday, where I said to him, where this fall launch thing, you know, it's gonna be, people's gonna be able to like, look at their televisions, go, I'll take a little of this and a little of that and program myself. And he goes, yeah, I think you're right. And I'm going, that's where we're at. You know, I mean, trying to launch a show like Monarch, I mean, there is the reason I, I'm thrilled for the network, and they're not very nice people who care immensely about what they do, and they're good at what they do to try and launch something these days. And to get, you know, it's like how you have to spin it to, to do that. It's just there is no platform anymore. And the pandemic just complicated things
Fritz Coleman (00:31:56):
That, that, that brings up a great question about writing, if you don't mind me asking you. Sure. Uh, I mean, you have to, you have to write act breaks when you're writing for a, a commercial television show, primetime tv. You have to write act breaks in there and sort of mini cliff hangers, but streaming, you can just write through to the, you know, slow build. Right? I mean, talk about the change that streaming is bringing to writing and producing and the, and the business of television. I think it's killing network television, Lisa.
Scott Shepherd (00:32:24):
Oh, there's no question. I mean, you know, we, there was even a joke. There was even a, uh, I, I've been joking about the last couple days. I used The Daily Beast for quite out loud, right? But I mean, they made an issue about monarchy. They said, Monarch is so bad. They said that it, it spells the end of network television. And it was, was because of just, it hits all those things about network intelligence at the same time, at the end, they go, we wouldn't be surprised if it does really well and works is basically what they were saying. So I, you know, I mean, what's happened is, is, um, there's a certain kind of show that works. Uh, you know, it's funny, I, I mean, I've worked on 25 shows and with all these mysteries and thrillers and everything like that, I never, I don't watch them.
I appreciate that they're well done for what they are. But the Dick Wolf shows Law and Order, uh, N C I S, csi, the Chicago Fi, the shows, they're just these shows, they kind of, they have a formula and they work and it's comfort food. Somebody described one of Mon and what they liked about it, it was like they said, laundry stacking, uh, company. I could do the laundry. <laugh>. Oh man. I going, you know, and I was always, as somebody who, you know, to me, I, everybody raves about, you know, what happened, I think, what, 15 years we could do spoilers. And n Stark dies at the end of, you know, the first year of, uh, you know, um, game of Thrones. I, yeah, that was a great big thing. It wasn't the first time, but it was a big thing at the time it happened.
I was always drawn towards, because I read mystery novels and thrillers and series, like, the reason I read all these books of collect people over the years is, you know, mis stories of stories. I'm really good at picking up plots. I can figure those out, act breaks and all that. But I come back because I wanna see what's happening to that character. So I was always more drawn to what the characters were going through, and the better shows that I worked on a network, whether it was Miami Vice or The Equalizer back then, those shows, you cared about McCall, you cared about Crockett and Tubs. You gotta peek into their inside lives. And that just translated into cables, sort of cable went on and, and started to embrace the novels for television. And when we had, you know, so to me, I think, you know, and, and now you can literally, sometimes we're kind of going like, God, we should just not watch. I'm really enjoying the patient. Like you talked about. I'm going like, maybe I should just not have watched it all and just waited for 10 weeks so I could just watch the whole thing, like a novel. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But then it's also like Dickens, right? I mean, Dickens, you know, got paid by the word and, you know, they, they waited, uh, every week to see what the next installment was. Yeah. And that became,
Fritz Coleman (00:34:47):
Were were you a show runner on Designated Survivor?
Scott Shepherd (00:34:51):
I, um, my buddy John was, and I, I did the first year, but
Fritz Coleman (00:34:55):
I think, uh, shows like 24 and that where they figured the formula of pacing these things out over a season, got people to tune in from week to week, more than any other formula seemed to do. Yeah.
Scott Shepherd (00:35:06):
But the thing was about 24, we, you know, we found about Design Survivor. I, I had lots of friends who did 24. I knew a bunch of those guys. Um, is, you know, 22 is a huge animal, you know, and try and put, you know, and, and to do 22 hours to make a novel, a story, that's a lot of time. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and I would always joke because of money and story, Jack Bower in episodes 14, 15 and 16 was usually like fighting somebody in a warehouse <laugh>, because they had nowhere to go before to get 'em to the next place because they had to stall cuz they knew that's where it was going, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, and, um, it's funny, uh, like the book, so my new book, so Should I Fall, which is a sequel to the last commandment, the one I did last, last year, that, you know, the, that book last year, the, you know, my book last year, the last Commandment was an idea for a movie or a TV series in my head for 30 years.
And I finally got around to writing it as a novel, and I wanted to succeed as novels, but I also knew that each book could be a season of a television show. And, um, and literally, but not 12, 14 episodes, like six to eight, maybe because you read a 304. I mean, if you're doing, you know, Stephen King's 600 pages and you're doing it or something, you know, that took two movies, right? So maybe they would make it like, you know, an entire season. But for a three or 400 page book, six to eight episodes, that's, and that's kind of like, you can keep up the tension and everything. I just think that works so much better. Um, I mean, it's really hard. I mean, I don't want 22 of anything anymore. I don't have time.
Louise Palanker (00:36:32):
How does the work, uh, being a detective or having an extreme career choice, how does that pull character, uh, out or maybe, you know, amplify what someone's going through in their personal life and pull that to the surface.
Scott Shepherd (00:36:49):
Um, be interesting. Anything I like what I'm doing,
Louise Palanker (00:36:52):
Like in your mystery books,
Scott Shepherd (00:36:54):
So my mystery books. So yeah. Well, here's the interesting thing about that. Um, so this book, which the one that's out now is, uh, the second of the series. And ie. I'll do more at some point, talk about the title before you go on. Oh, okay. The fir well, this new book is called Should I Fall? And it's the, it's the follow up I should say to the last commandment. But it can certainly, I think part of this comes from me having worked a lot in television and storytelling, is you can read this Absolutely. And on the first three pages you need all you need to know from the first one. So the last commandment was the first book. And, you know, to your point in terms of like the detective, um, and my favorite kind of mysteries I read in the detective stories, um, so I'll talk, the last commandment is about a guy named Austin Grant, who is a Scotland Yard commander.
Um, this is the first book, um, who is, um, retiring in three weeks at, on New Year's Eve, after 30 years at Scotland Yard. He lost his beloved wife to cancer a year before. And what you learn early on is he's estranged from his daughter since his mother, since her mother, his wife died, and you're not sure why. And he gets pulled into, uh, those last three weeks. He gets pulled into a case in London. There's a series of murders that you realize very quickly in the first 20 pages that are being, you know, committed according to the 10 Commandments. And it's the third and a series that opens the book. And the fourth one is like, thou shall not work on the Sabbath, thou shall not work on Sundays. And so he closes all the churches in London thinking a priest is gonna get murdered.
Nothing happens. And what happens at the end of the prologue is a priest is murdered found with a Roman numeral four carved in their head, but it's in New York, in St. Patrick's Cathedral. And there he has to work with a young New York cop. This idea was in my head for so long, you know, that I originally thought about it as a movie idea where two, you know, that this London retiring cop thinks Sean Connery 30 years ago has to go be with a 35 year old Robert DeNiro. And the two of them work on this case together, that starts in New York, goes back to London, and in the course of the book, in the first book, and then in the movie, he is reunited with his daughter who falls in love with the New York Cup. Wow. And that's what the, and that's what the first book's about.
And it spoils a little bit in the first book, you read the second book because it's sort of hidden that the, the two of them fall in love. Because what happens to a point, and I think it's a long way about answering your question, but this is what is passionate for me. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, this book starts six months later. Should I follow the new one? And what the first six pages are, it's six months later. And John Frankel, the cop, and Rachel, you know, grant, who is now together with her father who's retired from the yard after the case in the first book, John, and you know, Rachel are gonna be married in 10 days. And it opens with her going to Tiffany's to pick up her rings. And she talks about the breakfast of, you know, she always had Tiffany's and the blue boxes. And there's something in there about Holly, uh, Golightly, shout out to my dad.
Yeah. Um, and, and she end up picking up also his wedding present, which are a pair of ear rings that he's gonna, she's gonna take to his, his studio apartment in Murray Hill and leave from in his luggage. And so when, and she's gonna go to London to go join her father to prepare for the wedding. And so when he shows up three days before the wedding, he opened his suitcase to go pack and see his wedding present from his wife to be, and she unlocks the door of the, of the apartment and lying dead on the floor is his ex-wife is John Frankel's ex-wife who ran off two years ago, shot to death in his locked department. And that's how the second book starts. And so what the second book is about is instead of going to London, her father comes to to be with Rachel, with the man that she's about to marry.
Is he everybody who he thinks he is? Is this gonna be the son-in-law? He thinks he is, he's just suspected of this murder. He goes on the run. And the question being is, is this the person I think he is and what does he hiding? Whereas the first book people said, yeah, serial killer, et cetera. All that was interesting to me in the book was the love story. There was, it's three love stories. It's a love story between a father and daughter who were reunited in the first book, A woman who meets the man of her dreams, and then the sort of love story between these two cops who couldn't be more different. And strangely enough, in that first book when I was writing it 30 years later, finally was in my head, I discovered things about the young cop that was much more emotional and much more interesting to me than I wouldn't have known how to do 30 years ago.
And so, to that point, the mysteries that really interest me, the series I love, like Dennis Lehane is a great writer. That's a good TV series to watch. If you haven't watched Blackbird, he, he's writing that series, but he wrote a series of books, five books about these two characters, Patrick and Angie, there's a really pretty, uh, Ben Affleck's first movie he directed that Casey Affleck was in Gone Baby Gone. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, that's actually the fourth book in that series. And in the end of, of that five book series. And when you get to that end of that movie, there's a really rips your soul out thing that happens in a decision. These two private eyes who are kind of meant to be together, have to deal with each other and it tears them apart. And when you're watching a movie, it's pretty gut-wrenching. But if you read the books, you get to the fourth book, you're four books vested in these characters, it destroys you cuz you want them to be together.
So that, to me, it's a long way to answer your question, but that's the way to me. I'm interested in all the mysteries I read. Uh, this friend of mine, I, I know Faye Kellerman, she's married to Jonathan Kellerman, but Faye just wrapped up after 30 years, 30 books about this rabbi's, uh, you know, the Lazarus Decker Mysteries and about this rabbi's widow and a, uh, young cop who's a waspy cop who ends up marrying her. And the books What I've always felt like find a seminal event, if I keep this series going, it's always gonna be a seminal event in these characters' lives. I can build a cool mystery around it. I've done enough plots to do that. I want you to feel something. Mm-hmm. So that's the, and that's to me, what really appeals to me about the best detective literature and mystery literature. Is
Fritz Coleman (00:42:31):
There any similarly,
Scott Shepherd (00:42:32):
That's why Craw Adss is so interesting to you because you care, it's a mystery, but you care about that girl.
Fritz Coleman (00:42:36):
Absolutely. Is there any similarity in writing arcs in episodic television and writing in novel? Is it freer? Is it a, is it a different discipline? You've got two or three plots going on simultaneously with a novel?
Scott Shepherd (00:42:48):
You know, I think, you know, I kind of made it akin to, um, you know, I'm, I'm kind of lucky because you know, a lot of people I know, I've become friends with a lot of novelists over the years. I mean, I've been lucky to work with King a few. I've never met him. Uh, I got an interesting email with him, a nice email from him a year ago about my book. But, uh, uh, you know, but Harlan Koman, I've worked with Karen Slaughter, you know, and a bunch of these. And I've become friends with a lot of mystery writers the last couple years. Cause the community's so supportive in giving and we all, you know, and a lot of 'em are also interested in me helping, you know, adapt their books on the TV. And if we can, great. But what ended up happen, I, when I sort of said if I was gonna do my autobiography about television, I would call it l it television's not a radio show. <laugh>. You know, it's like, and I tell writers going, you know, it is there in front of you. You know, you don't have to like spell it all out. One of the problems I think you both know with Never Television is they spell it out. It feels like the least common denominator half the time when I started writing books late, I started writing books seven or eight years ago, is I kind of went, wait a sec, it is a radio show, <laugh>, you know, and you have to describe everything.
Fritz Coleman (00:43:52):
Well, language That's a good point though. Language is more important in a novel than it is in a television series.
Scott Shepherd (00:43:57):
Well, right. You have to, you have to set the television screen right. You know, and I think what's always been good for me is because I came from, you know, 30 years, 30 plus years of writing screenplays and thinking visually, um, you know, I know how to slow it down, you know, and kind of, and my narrows were always kind of cool cause I was always kind of, people can accuse my scripts and I'm always moving the camera in the narratives cause I'm telling you what to look at. So I kind of had that discipline. But the difference was, you know, when we sit down in television, I used to say, um, I guess maybe I got it from George Carlin, you know, the George Carlin thing. Remember that great routine used to do about football, football and baseball. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, he used to say in football it's sudden death.
And in baseball it's extra innings. You know, he says, we're play at the stadium. We play in a park, you know, <laugh>. It's like, I kinda started writing television. The little, I've done a movies, I've been pretty much a television guy, um, is, it's like basketball and football and baseball's like writing novels because you are, especially in television, you're writing like you say, guys to like an hour or a series of hours and you need to hit commercials and network. Right. But certainly at the end of an hour, you need to be at a specific place in a specific time. So you gotta get there and you gotta make sure your characters are doing stuff that doesn't feel outta character. But they gotta do it in a certain amount of time. Like, there's an hour to a football game, there's 48 minutes to a basketball game in novels.
I literally have written these five, 400 page novels with no outlines. I've been pretty good at structure. Like, all I knew writing this novel and people like this even better than the first one, is that all I knew was that opening. I told you I didn't know who did it. I didn't know why they did it. I just said, it's a good hook. I know. Slow alert. Yeah. I want them to be married at the end. That's all I know. I'll get there. I can figure that out. And, you know, it'll end when it ends. You know, it's like, you know, a baseball game ends when it ends. And, and to me, Harlan, I read Harlan would say, I realize we kind of write the same way. He's like, he says, if I know I'm gonna go from New Jersey to San Francisco, I know where I'm gonna start.
I know where I'm gonna end. He says, but I could take Highway 80 all the way across, or I could take, you know, a trip to the North Pole, take a dog sled to Alaska, a plane to Hawaii and a boat to San Francisco. I'll still get there. I'll find that way. I've always described when we're plotting, I kind of know the start. I might know the ending as like a maze, but I don't solve a maze where you just go from the start. I'm going to start here. And then you kind of work here and then you kind of fill in the middle. And then since you know you're at the end here and to start here, instead of going right at each other, you go different ways. You know, and you can get there if you have a good sense of direction. So that's what I've found. I found it very freeing and a lot less people to, um, answer to
Louise Palanker (00:46:29):
<laugh>. Do you find Oh, absolutely true. Do you find that, um, connective tissue comes to you when you are in front of your computer or when you're elsewhere?
Scott Shepherd (00:46:39):
Elsewhere? Uh, no. I'm, uh, uh, I joke with my wife. I say I should just carry a shower around with me because I think it's usually I'm in the shower, so it's like the water hitting my head, getting it going. I play a lot of golf, so, um, and, and, uh, I'm walking around on the golf course in the mornings and I'm gonna knock off the woods. My friends going, what's he doing? Goes, he's thinking of the next plot to his book. Uh, you know, I have lots of everybody's, every, you know, you guys have talked to hundreds of writers. I'm sure everybody has a different process, but they're really two kinds. They're the kinds of write every day. I admire those people. Um, or like Billy Wilder, arguably the greatest writer in the history of the film. Right. You know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, used to say when he sat down at the typewriter was written, that's kind of me.
I mean, I know I can't just sit down and go, Ugh, what am I gonna write today? No. Like, I wrote the pilot to, I wrote a pilot to the last commandment, cuz we're gonna try and turn, turn it into a TV show. Um, and so, and we're calling it Austin Grant. We're going out to some British actors now. Wow. And I wrote the pilot, like literally, I mean, and Agent lot couple people read. And it's cool if you like the book, you like that. I wrote it in two days. I've been thinking about doing it for a long time. Yeah. I mean, I, it is just, it kind of pours out it perk
Fritz Coleman (00:47:47):
And it comes
Scott Shepherd (00:47:48):
Closer. Yeah. Course I'm always writing while I'm talking to you. I'm writing loud. It's, it's my reason I speak so fast. It's my mouth trying to catch up with what's
Fritz Coleman (00:47:55):
Going on. No, it's fantastic. It's an action packed hour. <laugh>. Now, before we get away from your book, if I should fall, talk about the origin of that name. You're a major Springsteen fan, so that, that, that title is a slight variation.
Scott Shepherd (00:48:06):
Yes. Um, well, okay. So that comes from, um, I originally called it, uh, till Death because I thought, you know, till Death to Part and, and, and all the chapters are, you know, I mean the parts are separated until To Love and Don or it's the Wedding Vows. Um, but when I was talking to my publisher, he said, it's cool title, but I know there's an Ed Bain book that's called that. And I'm going like, oh, I hate titles that're hard to come up with. And so I'm taking a walk and I'm like I said, yeah, I'm a big Bruce fan. I've seen him over 300 times. Um, it's his own story. Uh, and I love that song. Should I Fall? You know, I mean, if I should Fall Behind, uh, and which is a wedding song, um, a lot of people play at their weddings.
And so if I should fall behind, wait for me. So I kind of went, should I fall? Uh, what's been interesting is my first book, uh, I've read two, I've written four books. The first book is a noir book that becomes a kind of a horror sort of thing. It, uh, it was originally called Dark Sands and it is called Descending Sun, uh, s o n, about this young man who gets into some difficulties. And that comes from because of The Night, which is Take me now as the son to Sentence. Yeah. Um, and uh, and the other funny thing is my agent at the time, um, uh, book agent at the time, read the first book and, you know, there was a dedication was to Holly, my wife, and acknowledged in the back. She goes, haven't did you, like, you didn't mention the Boss, even though the boss is in the books, you know, all the books.
At some point. Um, I said, did you read the Dedication? And it says to Holly, and it says She's the one. And the second book is to Holly, my Beautiful Reward. And it's, every book is dedicated to my wife and the dedication is a Springsteen song, <laugh>. So it's, it's, I'm sort of like one of those weird groupies. So I, I haven't, unlike you, we, we haven't been to the theater, but I did tell my wife I am gonna go see him when he comes here next year. I, that's the one I, I'll probably get me to a stadium. Have
Louise Palanker (00:50:02):
You, have you met him?
Scott Shepherd (00:50:04):
I did meet him once. Yeah. You know, it's funny, uh, <laugh>, I can tell you that story. Uh, you know, it's funny cuz growing up, um, you know, meeting all the people I, you know, I couldn't care less, you know, I mean, it's, I mean, they're, if they're nice people, they're nice people, but you have a few idols. I mean, it was sitting on the wall or three pictures, four pictures in this, here's another Springsteen, uh, line Candy's room, you know, in K's room there are, there are pictures of heroes on the wall. In my office, there's a picture of, um, Sandy Cofax and Willie Mays over here. There's a picture that picture away in the back there is of my grandfather, uh, that, uh, that, uh, Thomas Hart Betten Drew. And then on the side there's a picture of Bruce. Um, so, so me, it's like, those are some of the idols I had growing up, you know, you know, nothing very original except my grandfather.
Um, but so, you know, I kinda never wanna meet any of these people. Um, but I started writing, I saw, I saw Bruce when I was a teenager at, uh, when he was on, uh, the Born to Run doing Born to Run at, uh, at the Roxy. And I knew his music and I thought I'd seen like the second coming of whatever. And I'd heard incident on 56 50 seventh Street. And I just thought it was this great poetic sort of song. And I, you know what, you know, Springsteen says he wants to, uh, write like Dylan's sing like Roy Arbon and sound like Phil Spector's Wallace of Sound with the band. And it just hits a lot of things. They always say, the music you listen to in your teens, the music you can, you know, relate to, you know, your entire life. So mine's Bruce the Beatles and everybody else, you know, so I, I never met him, you know, I knew people who knew him.
I've, you know, we, we got tickets from people who knew him. Mm-hmm. So strange. But the, so this the Bruce Springsteen story, which is kind of a fun little story, which is like, God, 1991. So he was, uh, he was with Patty Scala. They were pregnant, uh, just, she had just gotten pregnant and they weren't married yet. And I'm on a Sunday night with my wife and her best friend Deborah, who's out here from New Jersey, whose husband David is also a big Springsteen family, go to a lot of shows together. But he was, she was just out visiting us and we're in this store in Western, do you remember that? Store politics and was like a Yeah. Clothing store. It was next to the Hamburger Hamlet. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> we're going to a movie on a Sunday night, me and the two girls, and it was Sibling Rivalry with Kim Christie Alley.
I'm the only person that remembers that movie because of that night <laugh>. And we're in politics and the girls are trying some stuff on, we're the only ones in the store. And the guy works in store said, did you see? You just walk in the door and there's Bruce walking in the door, he's picking up like a vest. And I'm going, he's signing like an autograph. I'm going, okay, you know, I have two autographs in my life. I have Bill Shoemakers that I'm a horse racing fan, or was for a long time on his last ride. And I have cofaq as autograph here somewhere. And I said, so I go to my wife who's in the changing room. I go, I said, process here. Do you have a piece of paper? And she goes, yeah. And she had one of those, like old, those old message pieces of paper that said like, while you were out, those <laugh> <laugh>.
So I took it and I go up to see Bruce and I said, Hey. I said, would you mind signing up? He goes, oh, sure. The girls come rushing out and they're bouncing over. They go, see, you know, Bruce. And, and Deborah goes, can you have, my husband's a big fan, can you write? Sure. So we rip it in half and he goes to David Best for Springsteen to Scott be Springsteen. And my wife, God bless her soul looks, Bruce Springsteen says, I just want you to know this is like your biggest fan of everything. Great. You know? So we talked for a couple minutes and we left. So, okay, so that's great. We have these autographs. So then we decided we're gonna get them framed, and we figured we'll have one on the left coast here. And they live in New New Jersey and love the East Coast.
And my friend David does some photographs. So we got those, you know, f uh, you know, frame too. And Deborah gets her frame, you know, autographed. But then the framer calls some fancy smashy framer over here who I thinks out business smiling, who basically says, uh, you know, your pictures are fine. But it was a piece of paper in there and we're going like, they'd lost the autograph. Oh. And my wife, I got into everything my, she goes, oh my God, I, they said, oh, we know him, but they don't know him. They, we get it. Like Larry Evans books, whatever. So they gave us some pictures from free. So for the next year, if you met my wife for the first time, she'd go, hi, I'm Holly Shepherd. Uh, I lost my husband's Bruce Spring
Louise Palanker (00:54:04):
Scott Shepherd (00:54:05):
So I'm running my first TV show, actually, it's all stories, right? Um, it is like I'm running my first TV show and I have this, uh, guy, really nice guy, uh, James Keach, this is Stacy Keach, it's brother. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, who is, uh, I make him the producer director on the show. And he calls me up a Christmas time and he says, I have something for you. I wanna be on the other end of the line when you get it. And I'm going, oh, great. Like, what did he do? Give us a dog or something. I <laugh> So I'm of my mother-in-laws and it's like, you know, three days before Christmas. And this guy comes out of a station wagon and he's carrying, you know, some of this big that's wrapped up. I open it up and it's a framed tunnel of love promotional poster from Berlin. So it's in German, but on it, it says, Merry Christmas, Holly and Scott Best wishes Bruce sings to come
Louise Palanker (00:54:48):
There. Go. Wow. And
Scott Shepherd (00:54:50):
I like tears outta my eyes. And I call, so I called James and I go like, what did you do? I, this is like the greatest thing he's ever given me. And he said, well, what happened was is that he told his manager this story, and his manager was having a baby like two months before. And up at Cedars the same wing that Bruce was. They closed it down the same day. So he'd gotten like a little guitar for Evan Springsteen who'd just been born. And he'd met friends and Bruce gave him something and he'd become friends with the, you know, his security. So when he heard this story, he says, lemme see if I can do something. So he called up the security and told them this story. And, and he said, look, he, he's not a freak, just, he runs a TV show.
He just wants an autograph. You know, it's like, and he, and and he says, well, cause Bruce has been pretty particular because he just signed a Fender guitar and somebody sold it for like 10 grand and going, no, he's not gonna do that. And so they told Bruce the story, and it turns out he was a really big fan of James is because he liked the long writers, the Wal Walter Hill movie that they starred and wrote. And so he said, I can't just give him monograph. Let me look around and see what he had. And the only thing he had was this folded up to a promotional poster of Tunnel of Love and being the Jews who don't celebrate Christmas <laugh> is Christmas
Louise Palanker (00:55:53):
Thing. Is is, is it hanging in that room? Can you point the, the computer? No, it's not hanging. Oh, okay. Somewhere else. I wanna talk about Quan Quantum leap for a moment because there's certain shows that kind of like attract a cult following. And can you predict that in advance? And like, and what happens and who do you hear from? And, you know, give us a little window into that world
Scott Shepherd (00:56:13):
In terms, say, say what
Louise Palanker (00:56:14):
Was just a cult, a cult following or something that is just forever,
Scott Shepherd (00:56:19):
Louise Palanker (00:56:20):
A fan based,
Scott Shepherd (00:56:21):
I don't know. I mean, I know one, I know there's been a cha I guess it's coming on next week again. Right. You know, we, we actually almost, we actually were talking 10 years ago about rebooting it then. Um, you know, that's a, I learned a lot from Don Bellisario who, you know, is kind of a lion and the business and lots of stories about, and he was very kind to me. You know, I, I can be tough on guys. Um, I was doing, I'd finished Miami Vice, you know, I did the last year of Miami Vice and I was pretty tired. And the guys were running Universal. We were doing, I was under contract with them. They said, look, we got this new show. There are three shows in. They got like an order of 12. You might like to go. You, you really kind of dig it and we need help.
Go meet the Guy Down boat. Sorry. It was like, you know, quantum, you know, and I watched the pilot and speaking back to the future, I kind of went like, wow, this is kinda like, back to the future. It goes back is all this kind of fun stuff. And I'll never forget, I mean, I tell this to writers all the time, you know, going back to what you were wrestling leagues about detectives and motivations. And I think why this is this show work and people love this show so much was, I don't remember the pilot to that show, but I re we, I, you know, we were just doing the first few episodes. I was trying to get the gist. I remember I wrote a, the first script I wrote was one where he <laugh> where he popped into being a private eye in the thirties.
Funny idea. Let, I would do that. But that's what I did. And I remember Don rewriting the script considerably and watching what he was concentrating on. And then I, and I'd seen the pilot. And then the pilot, which was a two hour pilot, um, was him jumping into an air, him popping into Sam, popping into an Air Force pilot's life. And he was like very, he was very top gun influence. Cause that's what, you know, had come out a couple years before. And Don was in the Air Force and was very proud of that and big adventure. And at the end of the day, the reason, remember, he always had to figure out the reason he was there to leap. And it was never the big adventure. It was the thing he was supposed to do. And that thing, he was supposed to name the baby of the pilot, the baby, the baby that the pilot and his wife were having.
And then he popped. But at the end of that pilot, the last five minutes of that pilot, he pops into to show what the show's about. He pops into the body in 1953 of a little of minor league baseball player. And Sam's there and he realizes 1953 still trying to get what he's thinking of. And he goes, before he goes for his at bat, he realizes when it is. And he turns out the dugout and he goes down the hall and he reaches in his pocket for a nickel, I presume at the point, and puts a nickel in the payphone. And he calls his father and has his conversation with his father who had died and who was dead in his present day. And he got to have a conversation with his father and say everything that he wanted to. And I remember that, you know, is like that those were in the days when they used to test shows and they had the freaking dials, you know mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
And if this is Dial that says they're bored, the dials went through the roof. Wow. And I said, that's what it is about television. It's the heart. And it's like, you know, we always, and when we did Dead Zone, we always talk about what's the heart of Johnny Smith, you know, and it's like, you know, the, the other huge influence to me growing up, cause I used to watch Black and White and I would sit around, tap them on lunch. Was was the Twilight Zone, you know, I mean, I, everybody goes, what's your favorite TV show? Not even a th you know, by far and away there's the Twilight Zone to me and everything else, best writing, best Story. Two people in the room tell you those stories, you know, and, you know, and, and I could recite every one of those stories. I can watch three seconds of it and tell you what those original, you know, I can tell you what episode it is.
I can tell you what it's called. Um, and you know, I would make any, when we were teaching a class in Texas, I would always talk about, like, it was the third or fourth. It was like the third episode. It was episode called Walking Distance with Gig Young, who's a terrific actor. And it's the story about the guy who's, it's the business band who's like jumping out of his, can't stand his career in his life. And he breaks down near his small hometown and he walks into his hometown, it's walking distance from the d you know, from the garage. And he suddenly is back in this hometown, it's 20 years before, it's 30 years before it's when he was a kid. And he realize he's been transformed. He actually sees himself as a kid and he's able to actually interact with his father, who doesn't believe who he is, and finally believes who he is.
And he scares the kid. And there's this great speech only like Rod Sumler could have written where he says, I understand who you are. I don't understand how that came from, but you can't stay here. And he says, this is his summer. Everybody's entitled to one summer. And they're, you know, they're 10 year old summer. And he says to him, he says, is it that bad where you came from? And he says, I think so Pop. He says, well try and make it better. And he goes back a change, man. And I said, it's that storytelling in genre fiction. That's why I think Stephen King's a master at what he does. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, I mean, the reason it works is because it's, these kids were scarred by something that happened to them as children that this, you know, and, and this thing prays on what, you know, what eats at them. The reason the Shining is, you know, you know, besides maybe being a horror novel about writer's block, you know, it's about abuse and alcoholism. I mean, to me, the best stuff has so much layering under it all. The rest of the stuff is just like tinsel. You know,
Louise Palanker (01:01:15):
It's just offering the possibility of a correction.
Scott Shepherd (01:01:18):
Right. Exactly. You know, and I think that's, to me, so when I'm working on anything, that's what I have to find, you know? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, what is that correction that you, so to speak mm-hmm. <affirmative> because other, you know, it's, I mean, I'm the biggest sap in the world, you know? And I, and I think somebody a long time ago, you know, I reason I stayed in drama or genre stuff was, you know, communis are great and somebody wants them to me, you know, we laughed, we laughed, and then we stopped. And I'm going, the thing I'm, you know, think of, you know, I'm going greatest ending of any movie ever. Baby Planet of the Apes, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> stunning ending. But you think about what it meant, <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, it's like y you know, it's a warning. <laugh> it's a warning, you know? I mean, it's a warning and it's, you know, it's all that stuff, you know.
Um, it's also sometimes I get too good for my own good. It's like when, um, when the Sixth Cents came out, I remember seeing the ad and I'm going, I think I know what this movie's about because really, yeah. I went with my assistant, I went with her and I said, you know, I said, I'm gonna write four words down in my pocket, you know, <laugh>. And I wrote BW as Dead, you know, and, and I walk in and I watch in the first, first four minutes I go, shit. So I got to have the experience that everybody had the second time. Mostly I got to have it the first time. Oh. But the other thing is, what's great is when you, like, I, I used to watch my niece and nephews growing up. Cause we don't have kids is, to me, it's like you sit there and you watch like a Twilight Zone episode. Do you remember, I don't how much you guys watch that show, but do you mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're really goody lies in the eye of Beholder where the woman, and it turns out they're all pigs and she's beautiful.
Louise Palanker (01:02:43):
Was that gig young in that one too? Huh? Was Gig Young? No, no. Oh, it was, um, what's that guy's name? That really handsome guy? Um,
Scott Shepherd (01:02:50):
Oh, the guy who's the professor and nanny and the nanny
Louise Palanker (01:02:52):
Of the profess that guy. Yeah. The
Scott Shepherd (01:02:54):
Voice, interestingly enough is the woman with the un rapper is Donna Douglas, who was the Beverly Hill Village. But they heard her voice was so horrible. They got another voice to me,
Louise Palanker (01:03:02):
<laugh>. Oh, I didn't
Scott Shepherd (01:03:03):
Know that. But, but, but to me, the wonder of watching a child or a young person is when I watch, I will watch that show or something with somebody for the first time. And I don't watch the show. I watch them.
Louise Palanker (01:03:13):
Oh, Richard Long. Richard Long, that name Pop Richard Long.
Scott Shepherd (01:03:16):
Yeah. You did another one too. Do you still teach uh, Scott? I, yeah, we haven't done it right now. We did a really interesting thing. Um, and I think just cause of the pandemic and we had to stop it for a while. So I first taught, when I was at Stanford 40 years ago, uh, I taught a course. Uh, I just, when I start writing, um, when I was an undergraduate, I taught a course on detective novels. Hmm. Uh, cause I've been reading, I've been reading them since I was a kid, obviously. And I went to my English professor, a guy named Rob Bohemus who just re recently retired. He was the chairman of the, you know, and he, and, and they had this thing called undergraduate specialist. You could create a course. It was, it was, it was an alternative curriculum, but deemed academic.
And he fought for me to do a reading list that I had a reading list that was po uh, Doyle, uh, worthy Sayer, aga the Christi Rex Scout, ery Queen. And then, uh, Hamit Chandler McDonald. And you know, I've already read these books and I would start writing little skits and I would give lectures on how to kill people in lock rooms and everything. So I did this for like, you know, I did that for like six quarters at Stanford. Um, and it's really funny. I think I was like, we were like the first people in the country ever to do anything like that. And now it's like, walk into Stanford. I'm going to another university. And they all have courses like this now cause it's been deemed academic, the literature. But so what happened is I always had this idea about teaching and, and I hooked up with a, one of my best friends and we've written a lot of stuff together.
A woman named Cindy McCreary who was a screenwriter. Um, she was like, wrote Disney movies and, uh, wrote romcoms and I write, so it's a perfect match cause we do totally different stuff. And she always taught though, uh, and she's considered, you know, like 20 years younger than me. And we were developing stuff with her. And she used to teach at U C S B. And about 10 years ago she got invited or asked to go teach. And she moved with her husband in two young kids to Austin, to you teach, to teach a course to teach, to teach, you know, the grad school there and the undergrads. And she said, do you wanna do like a, you know, maybe do like a, a, you know, a, a Skype like, you know, lecture or something like that. I said, I've had this idea like, you know, that maybe I should, um, I kept wanting to do it cuz it, cuz I've still like four units short from graduating from Stanford.
I'm still <laugh> cause I, cause I didn't take a fourth year of French and I thought like, you know, all this stuff, somebody could've given a degree, not that it's hurt or help, whatever. I didn't wanna be a doctor. Um, so, uh, I said I had this idea of course. And what we ended up doing was we created a, we wrote a pilot together. That's a whole weird story of its own books to movies. That's a whole Hollywood business story. I can tell you sometime. But what the idea was, we wrote a pilot and then this, the first year we did it for seven consecutive years. For every fall quarter for three and a half months. Every Tuesday morning I drove to lax, got on a plane, flew to Austin, Cindy picked me up, we'd go have a bite, then we go teach for three hours.
We go have a drink. On the way back, I'd get on a plane, never missed a night coming home. Or Holly would come, we'd go down for three days once a quarter. And we did it for like, I would, you know, do this for 14 weeks. We had a class of 12 and we taught a writer's room to where we would not only teach how we would then have the speech student write their own episode and we'd create a season, you know, of a television series. And it, you know, allowed them to learn what it was like to work in a writer's room and to collaborate. Cause the first thing I said, if you wanna work in television, you have to be collaborative. You know, if you don't want to collaborate, then go write movies or books. Um, because your episode five is only as good as six and seven three, I could give you all that stuff.
And it was interesting. We just did it as an exercise. But of course the first thing we did, we said, well maybe we can sell this. And so we suddenly, next thing we knew Robert Redford got ahold of the first thing we did. And we almost got it made by Greenblatt at N B C. And, and then we did it seven times. It led to me and Cindy selling like eight or nine pilots of our own. We got commissioned three or four times to do this. But meanwhile, the great thing was always about the students and half of those students and we taught over those seven years, all came to Hollywood. And more than half of them are working on television shows. And I'd like to think, and they always sort of say, part of it is they gotta step ahead cuz they kind of got the idea of what that collaborative writing room process, which I have tons of problems with anyway, you know, which I think, I think there's a lot of problems about writer's rooms.
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which I could go into at some point. Yeah. Um, I think writers write, you know, um, but, uh, and that course was, um, was an example of that. But it was great. And then when the pandemic happened, you know, they didn't teach at all for a semester one year. And then they combined things and I wasn't gonna fly in, you know, after seven years. I mean, Cindy and I are still really close and have a few things we're doing together, but I think I kind of gave my version of the, I mean I did it all for three. They finally paid me to like, at least paid by for air flights
Fritz Coleman (01:07:40):
At the end of each semester. What single piece of advice did you give to students for launching into a career in real show business?
Scott Shepherd (01:07:47):
What was my number when you No, uh, <laugh>. Um, I would say, uh, my big thing was write what you, what you write something you wanna write that you wanna see. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> don't mm-hmm. <affirmative>, write what you feel, write what you'd watch, you know. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, I, you know, I would say this to Bob all the time. Other people, I do run networks, you know, they go, they want this, they want that. I'm going, who's they introduce me to, they, I say, Bob, you're they. And you don't even know what you want. You know? I mean it's like, like, because until you see it, and the bottom line is because when I'm like, I, to me, when I'm running shows or you know, reading scripts and work with people, I don't wanna read a speck version of a like, like a, a sample copy of an episode.
I wanna read how you write, you know, you know, because I wanna see what's important to you. I can see how you write. I can see where you think. And, and I really believe that if you're a good writer and you're all connected to anybody who knows somebody, who knows somebody who can keep doing it, you will get recognized. We all know you could be a great actor and you might never see the light of day. Cuz that is just so much more of a crapshoot. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Because the one thing you do as a writer, you can do, you can sit there and you can keep working on it yourself all the
Louise Palanker (01:08:54):
Time. Yeah. That's, that's an amazing piece of advice. Well, we wanna thank you so much for being with us, Scott. Like people can find your books on Amazon and where else should people go to find you?
Scott Shepherd (01:09:03):
Um, if you go to my website, which is, uh, www Scott Shepherd author.com, that has like the social media that I'm on when I can be on, oh, there you go. That's it. Yeah. And all those little things up on the right. I guess that's the stuff they're wearing on posting stuff occasionally. Yeah. I'm not very good at that. You know, I'm kinda old fashioned that way. You'd like to think the work speaks for itself, but it's very nice people like you that give you platforms to say, go read my books or watch our TV shows. Right.
Louise Palanker (01:09:29):
All right, well here come our closing credits. Fritz and I have created a web hub to help you shop for gifts and save democracy in one fun move. Gift of democracy.com curates great swaggy merch from candidates and causes committed to protecting and defending our democracy. Chris and I make no money here. We don't need it. We're not running for office. Our site is like a mall directory sign that points you towards the merchandise pages of candidates and causes that are working to save our democracy. It's the donation that counts. Democracy makes a great gift. Thank you so much for joining us. We would love to continue this conversation with you on Instagram and Twitter where we are at Media Path Pod and on Facebook where our show page is, media Path Podcast. And our Facebook group is Media Path with Fritz and Weezy podcast community.
You can find full video podcast episodes loaded with bonus visual content on our YouTube channel Media Path podcast. You can write to firstname.lastname@example.org. If you enjoy the show, please give us a nice rating in Apple Podcast and talk about us on social media. You can sign up for our fun and dishy email@example.com. We wanna thank our wonderful guest, Scott Shepherd. Our team includes Dean Friedman, John Maddox, Sharon Beo, bill Fiac, Thomas Hubble, Mason Brown, and you. Our theme music is by me and John Maddox. I'm Louise p Planker here with Fritz Coleman and Scott, she and we will see you along the media path
Speaker 5 (01:10:55):
Impossible show one podcast and we just did.
Louise Palanker (01:10:59):
Yeah, I think that's a record.